Since I'm sure you've employed impeccable forethought in wishing that we see a complete worldwide economic collapse, perhaps you'd be kind enough to share with us what you see as the benefits of such an event.

You know, if you're not busy dreaming up other crazy shit...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

The survival of the species, nothing less.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

But the species isn't dying off...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Neither were the Easter Islanders... yet they did.

but its more than just survival though, of course. its about quality, not quantity.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Your posts are full of nothing.

What are the real benefits of a worldwide economic collapse, over maintaining what we have?

And, please, remember to keep your response in the context of melting ice, since that's what the thread's about...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

And yours tend to begin or end in some sort of insulting tone.
Im pretty sure my answer is clear throughout this thread. If we grant two things - 1) endless economic growth destroys and poisons the landbase, and is ultimately unsustainable. -2) People will never change.

With these premises in mind (both of which are debatable to some extent), the benefits of economic collapse should be obvious to anyone with basic logic.

Melting ice is only a part of a much larger problem, there is no point in separating out the ice from the wider topic of the environment and what should be our kinship with the planet, not out mastery over it.

That is, unless it is proven that the warming of the arctic is attributable purely to natural phenomenon and the human economy has no role in it whatsoever.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

The issue of our mastery over the planet is a theological one, not a scientific one. My position is that Man does indeed have mastery over the planet, and that said mastery is ordained by none other than God Himself. Indeed, that's what the Bible says. You may hold a different theological position on that issue, but your defense of that position of yours will be no stronger than mine is, nor any more scientific or provable than mine, so I'd encourage you to not even try to go there.

Second, the scientific evidence does indeed seem to support the idea that any supposed "warming of the Arctic" (even assuming such a thing is true, which is also debatable) that may have occurred is SOLELY due to natural pehnomenon. The scientific evidence for that position is that the Earth has gone through previous warming cycles during much earlier times, times when Man apparently wasn't even in existence on the planet. Furthermore, prominent scientists of today have taken the position that water vapor is THE cause of any "global warming", and that the ocean is BY FAR the main source of water vapor, NOT anything Man is doing.

Because I believe your wish for worldwide economic collapse is both shortsighted and stupid. It's hard to be congenial and amicable when faced with that...

If they're so obvious, perhaps you could lay them out for us?

What ended the first Ice Age?

It sure the Hell wasn't man...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Are you suggesting that the current economic system is not shortsighted??

Look, im just taking your premise, that we will never change, and following it through to its natural consequence. I.e., pave paradise and put up a parking lot.


Given the premises and the likely consequences, not poisoning the rivers and forests, not killing the landbase.

That is the benefit.


Why do you insist on both misunderstanding and misrepresenting climate science?

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

God! What a sense of humor, I have to admit I never suspected you of being capable of such a satirical flight of fancy, Sal. My hat is off to you.

I don't recall seeing this--got a source? It's carbon dioxide that they think is the culprit.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Thats is perverse.

Yeah well there are lots of books that say different. The bible holds no special place among them.

Your deliberate ignorance of mans status as an animal that evolved within the ecosystem and on the landbase over millions of years is astounding. Why do you set up the issue as having no basis in science? There is a great wealth of scientific information regarding habitat viability for all different kinds of species living in kinship with each other and the earths climate system. Man is a part of this system and there is no reason to believe otherwise, your book of fairy-tales not withstanding.


Warming of the arctic is an indisputable fact. Backed up by evidence from various different approaches, from temperature measurements, observations, to cultural/language studies of the inuit peoples.

The issue of GHGs and the warming of the arctic is also backed up by sound theory, climate models, observation, atmospheric gas measurements, and so on... this is of course is not 'conclusive', but it is convincing. It is convincing to the point that we have sufficient reason to be concerned.

Thanks for the enlightenment. You obviously only have a slight understanding of the issues involved. No kidding there were glacial and interglacial periods on earth in the geologic past. There are very well studied, and there is not a climate scientist on the planet who would use such a fact to discount present day global warming or even mans influence on the climate. One is not exclusive to the other.

That is such bullshit. Water vapor is a feature of the climate and has been for millions of years. That is also well understood. The problem we are talking about has to do with concentrations, thresholds, feedback loops, etc.... its about what we add to the already existing effect of water vapor. Its not as if climate scientists just discovered water vapor.... that this all of a sudden pokes holes in the theory of AGW....


Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

The idea has been promoted, for some time now, that man is the cause of global warming. Yet the first Ice Age was ended as a result of the same (hey, it didn't end because it got colder), and man wasn't around to influence it...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Nor is there a legitimate climate scientist on the planet who would seriously promote the idea that natural occurences have nothing to do with the present state of global warming...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Actually if you read the relevant material the idea the is being promoted is that man is adding to, or amplifying, a natural warming cycle.

See, you misrepresent it. Do you watch FOX news by any chance?

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

No shit. You are advancing....

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown