Daisy, I see no reason to answer you when you choose not to answer me. Especially when you also choose to make unwarranted assumptions and insult me.

If we were to determine that the artic ice melting faster than usual was a natural occurence, would it be ok? If this caused all the seals to die, would that be ok then, since its natural? Isnt this really a question of what we think the status quo should be?

I seem to recall somewhere that arctic penguins and birds benefit by having more land uncovered by ice melting. Should we be concerned that were we to do something about arctic ice melting that it would negatively affect the penguin population?

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http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

I think Cato that if you look back you will see that it was YOU who began to make personal comments - such as re my or Andrew's apparent neglect of our elderly relatives ....

Personally I think this is far more offfensive than anything I said to you.

Unbelievable.

Here's what you wrote, Daisy:

"I have just been to visit my elderly aunt in a nursing home, filled with elderly people whose quality of life is anything but enjoyable. sure the foods good - but there's more to life than that.

I have also spent time with berbers in the sahara where I saw elders of indeterminate age still with families, still part of their families and still productive members of the community. their ecological footprint was much smaller than mine - which is probably much less than yours.

The quality of life THEY had was far superior to that of an elderly westerner in a nursing home."

I DID NOT respond that you neglect your elderly relatives. I wrote:

"Let me see if I got this right: You (and/or your family) put your relatives in a nursing home so that others can take care of them, then you deride society at large for not keeping relatives at home and taking care of them theirselves?"

YOU chose to put your aunt in a nursing home, Daisy, not society. If making sure the elderly remain "part of their families and... productive members of the community" is important to you, then show it. But don't blame society for choices YOU make.

This is a sad, sad, day. I used to consider you an intelligent and reasonable person, Daisy. I'm beginning to seriously doubt that.

Actually that is not true. The cost of living is far too high for most people to stay home to take care of their elderly parents.

I know for a fact many people who cannot quit their job to stay home with their dependent parent. They would both starve, rather quickly. That is an unfair comment to make, Cato. Neither of these people chose this reality.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Bull. The cost of living is far too high if you're living above your means - as most people do. Again, this is a personal choice. No one forces people to live beyond their means.

In reality, keeping a relative at home is far, far cheaper than paying for their care in a separate facility.
They did. They chose to buy something rather than long-term care insurance. They chose career paths where caring for a dependent is untenable - what are they going to do when they have kids? They chose to remain at these jobs rather than finding jobs where caring for that dependent is possible.

Of course, I can only make assumptions based upon the limited information given and the statistics, but I'd lay money that I'm right. Let me take a look at their finances and I'll tell you every poor decision they made.

Everything you do is a personal choice. You can argue that we're all mindless automatons buying and consuming at the whim and will of mega-corporations, but that's just a way of passing on personal responsibility. Passing on personal responsibility has brought us to the society you seem to eschew.

I'm talking about if they need constant care. Not if they just need company and help with dinner.

This has nothing to do if with whether or not you live above your means. And it also has nothing to do with personal choice.

I don't know Cato. Your understanding of the way our society functions is pretty weak.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

For example: I live in the greatest boom economy on the planet at the moment, right now there is a major crisis because rent has skyrocketed beyond what anybody could plan for. There are now old people on the street because what was adequate for them a month ago has become untenable, this not about their personal choices at all.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Yes, it does. Did they choose to get an education? Did they choose to live where the demand for their skills was high? Did they choose to work for the best company needing their skills? Did they choose to save their money? Did they choose to purchase insurance which would provide hospice care for their dependents while they are at work? Did they cultivate relationships of friends who could help them in time of extreme, dire need?
And what makes you write this?

Andrew, I didn't respond to your penultimate post because you're getting off into this realm that simply contrasts so deeply with my personal beliefs that I find it upsetting. I like you. I think the world needs more people like you. People who can objectively, logically, and reasonably look at issues and come to cogent, rational conclusions. Your beliefs about personal responsibility, choice, and society simply don't comport to any rational view of the world. An idealistic view, perhaps, but an unworkable and unrealistic view. It is simply not how the world works, and your adherence to it shakes my belief in you. Rather than tell you this point blank, I chose to just not respond. We'll get nowhere with it. Reasonable people can disagree. Then you come back at me and tell me my understanding of the way our society functions is weak? Well, that's just a bit insulting. Prove my understading is weak. Prove people have no ability to choose for themselves. Prove we are forced to buy everything that is hawked to us. Until such time as you do, my understanding of how society functions is spot on.

I'm done with this thread.

[quote=Cato;992335]Yes, it does. Did they choose to get an education? Did they choose to live where the demand for their skills was high? Did they choose to work for the best company needing their skills? Did they choose to save their money? Did they choose to purchase insurance which would provide hospice care for their dependents while they are at work? Did they cultivate relationships of friends who could help them in time of extreme, dire need? [quote]

Probably to the best of their ability and the best that chance afforded them.

Ok that was a bit rude. sorry.
I dont think there is any one way that culture works. And i don't think we are free to choose all aspects of our life within any culture. I think there are powerful forces that narrow the field drastically. And i think it is quite sad to see people within that narrow playing field think that they have the choice of the full broad spectrum of human freedom available to them within regulations and laws of the civilized world. Yes there are plenty of choices i could make to be free to live in the world i imagine, but this would necessarily result in law breaking to some degree. You see to think i can just freely choose to live in a world where the industrial destruction of the land is not happening, i just don't see how i was ever allowed to make this choice.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

You have made post like this before Cato, and I am beginning to see that this is your strategy when you don't really have an argument.

You also make a whole range of assumptions regarding the situation I have described which provides further evidence that you have not in fact done any research/have any knowledge of the situation re families and the elderly.

Your responses to Andrew indicate that you are out of touch with the reality of most people living even in your own society.

In addition, you were unable to comment on the Japanese and Georgian people who live to a grand old age WITHOUT producing excess carbon emissions, or the likelihood of life span in future generations being less due to poor dietary habits and lack of exercise - factors which are a direct result of a lifestyle which is dependent on high levels of carbon emissions.

I think Cato it is YOU who have shown yourself to be a petulant boy who is not worth wasting time on.