More like all those ethical conflicts to get more funding for nonsensical research. There is no such thing as global warming.

But it does show as to who you listen to.

Believing in stuff is sloppy science.
There is a global cooling theory and a global warming theory.
It does not follow from that that earths temp is cyclical. There are other observations and theories to demonstrate cyclical behaviour.
The records go back far enough to demonstrate that current trends will be disadvantageous to man and other lifeforms.

It's not the same thing if it happens faster. Ecosystems don't have time to adapt and our current modern civilisation is not nomadic enough to cope.

You also demonstrate a lack of understanding of the concepts of overshoot and feedback exhibited in a control system. Your blind denials cannot prevent the resulting wild oscillations.

Hmm, you do know it takes the same amount of "nonsensical research" to say that there is no such thing as global warming, right? I mean, to say it without being or, at least, sounding like, a religious nut in, as WildMan just put it, blind denial.

The majority of scientists who have studied the environment over the last thirty years or so would disagree.

I haven't seen ANY recent arguments that counter the information presented by scientists, and the fact that industry is coming on board - and particularly the INSURANCE industry - suggests that global warming - and its consequences - are seen as very real outside the scientific community - and for sound economic reasons.

Science is not settled by majority, Daisym. I could say that ever since Thatcher started pushing a UK nuclear power agenda, the majority of scientists found that it became much easier to get funding for their projects by somehow including the concept of global warming. That would have just as much bearing on scientific findings (findings, not fundings), which is, of course, none.

Likewise, that economical interests are trying to cut in on a hype has no bearing on anything else than the existence of a hype. Industry coming aboard is always only an indication of market prospects.

Lastly, that you haven't seen any recent arguments that counter the information presented by the apparant majority of scientists has no bearing on the scientific issue, either. What matters is the scientific validity of the information, - not whether it's seen or not and not even if it exists or not.

That being said, Traveler's post had of course no validity whatsoever.

The argument for human caused global warming is pretty laughable, but there is good information that needs to be taken seriously. Global warming as a trend is happening, and we need to be prepared to adapt to our (ever) changing environment. Hysterical restrictions on CO2 are not the answer, but energy conservation, investment in new technology and research, and other sensible precautions are in order. If liberals were truly concerned about the future of mankind, then they would work towards building solutions we can all agree to. Instead they fabricate stories in a lame attempt at a power grab, truly disgusting.

Note to liberals: the government is not the answer for imposing your views on others. If you really want to make a difference in everyone's behavior, follow these steps:

1: Follow the behavior yourselves (leading by example)
2: Try to convince others by reasoned, intelligent debate instead of government fiat.
3: Consider using market forces to cause real changes. In a consumer driven economy, the will of enough consumers can move mountains quite literally.
4: Abandon failed methods by being more results driven. If your current method is not working to achieve the desired result, try something different. Case in point: 5 decades of failed wealth redistribution programs, solution, more money to the same programs! This kind of thinking is not helping you win a lot of converts, besides those receiving government funding of course.

I hope that helps!

-Ericson
I don't have a problem with socialism, as long as you don't drag me into it! (Walter Williams)

Conflict of interests; they want more funding for reasearch.

Nonsense, no such thing and for those of us who don't see it as anything more than a myth created for some perverse reason by geeks (okay scientists with way too much time on their hands) have never seen ANY arguments of any sort valudating it.

I've thought of a great way to end global warming: everyone who believes in it should hold every other breath! That way your CO2 emissions would be reduced by half! We could even impose regulations limiting the amount of exercise you are allowed per day, since exercise increases a persons CO2 output. Gym memberships should contain a hefty CO2 tax. Speaking should be taxed on a per word basis, the tax revenues alone from politicians would be enough to make us all millionaires!

lol, maybe we could get back to talking about real issues that we can have an actual effect on, like mercury or lead contamination! If only liberals were the ones who had to pay for the government programs they try and force on the rest of us, then I'd have no problems with their programs!

Right, us scientists are just looking around for a way to get our 5th Mercedes. That NSF grant is so easy to get if you just put global warming in the title.

Seriously, as in any endeavor, there are politics involved. And science is no different. You can't have human involvement without something getting political. It's impossible.

However, I would argue that scientific debate has A LOT less of this than other fields of endeavor. That's because when you present your ideas, you have to defend them. That's not always true in other lines of work. In science, you can have the best names in the business as coauthors on your research, but if it's shit, it's going to be picked apart eventually. Because everyone can read what you did, what you found and what you think it means in order to attempt to replicate your results if need be. It's not a perfect system, but it works a hell of a lot better than you are implying.

And people who do it are generally not in it for the money. For the amount of training and graduate-school-indentured-servitude you have to go through to get merely a decent salary (unless you're a petroleum geologist), you would be crazy to be in it for the money. You can make so much more doing other things in a much shorter period of time.

Trust me, I've been doing marine science for 12 years now and I don't think I will ever be accused of being rich.

__________________
He who learns but does not think is lost! He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger. --Confucius

Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.
--Sun Tzu

Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors.
--African proverb

Only ignorance would allow us to believe that we are immune to effecting our environment in the globe. Civilizations have come and gone because they couldn't learn to fit in with the ecosystem of their environment.

Like many natural systems our atmosphere has a delicate balance that we have been crapping on for a hundred years. We can't expect to continue to kowtow to big oil and coal just for the purpose of big profits and the status-quo of world industry.

Global Warming is a scientific fact - Human cause of global warming is a scientific fact - It's the extent of our contribution that is in question within the scientific community.

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Fact - Climate warming

http://www.aaas.org/news/press_room/..._spm2feb07.pdf

Global Warming- Science - The New York Times

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...E983414B7F0000

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Fact - Seas warming
NOAA News Online (Story 399)

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Global Dimming - Human contribution countering the effects of global warming

Frightening evidence of how global warming is worse than we realize

Global Dimming - Global Issues

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Fact - bush to suppress facts regarding global warming

Bush Administration Ordered to Write Global Warming Reports

YouTube - Global Warming and George Bush

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God commanded our responsibility to protect the Earth in the Covenant - Dismissing sound environmental science fact because of historical disputes between Darwinism and Evolution is tantamount to the ultimate sin based on ignorance.

The Bible -

"Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you ... Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth."" (Genesis 9:8-13)

__________________

Wow i just noticed the lightbulb in the opening post before the thread's title, how ironic!

Can you expand on this, please? Examples? (This isn't rhetorical - I'm honestly curious)

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

there are books on the subject (below) -

There have been maybe 100 civilizations that have come and gone - many where environment played a role in their collapse. Common amongst these the causes were Deforestation or soil erosion due to over irrigation... etc. Civilization collapse under these types of circumstances include (some examples) the Maya in the Yucatan, the Anasazi in the American Southwest, the Cahokia mound builders outside St. Louis, the Greenland Norse, the statue builders of Easter Island, ancient Mesopotamia in the Fertile Crescent, Great Zimbabwe in Africa, Angkor Wat in Cambodia.

In many cases like Mesopotamia for example, Farmers knew what needed to be done to correct the situation of mineral salt concentration due to irrigation - but they were ordered to continue to irrigate the lands so to meet the demands of the population - resulting in the destruction of the fields by mineral salts. When mineral salts concentrate in the upper levels of the soil, it becomes poisonous for plants.


Here are some links

The Last Americans: Environmental Collapse and the End of Civilization JARED DIAMOND / Harper's Magazine Jun03

Environment and Ancient Societies

Environmental Disasters, food production, history, Mesopotamia, Sumerian, Nile River, Egypt

this looks good -

Amazon.com: A New Green History of the World: The Environment and the Collapse of Great Civilizations: Books: Clive Ponting

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Global warming is a fact, global cooling is a fact. The two have been happening since the beginning of time. What is not fact is that humans are a direct cause. Especially when 90+% of all greenhouse gasses are water vapor which by the way is not exactly a pollutant.

__________________
"Chaplain Charlie will tell you about how the free world will conquer Communism with the aid of God and a few marines! God has a hard-on for marines because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps! Do you ladies understand?"