In that case vote regularly, work for clean government, and motivate people you know to do the same. Government must be paid for. The dependance on oil is too harmful to the country to ignore any longer. Tax policy will be used to work on the problem in some fashion. Those facts won't change by mischaracterizing taxation as theft.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

"Climate change", if it's real, is not an American problem, it's a global problem. The idea that Americans should suffer hefty tax increases to decrease the chances of it is stupid.

"Climate change" is going to happen, regardless of how much we pay in taxes...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

You don't know if it's real but somehow you do know it can't be helped by tax policy? Yeah that makes all kinds of sense. Thanks for your deep and insightful contribution to a subject you obviously spent about 2 seconds thinking about.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

I do, I do and I try. But if things don't happen IMMEDIATELY, most of the people are highly resistant to change.
I've been doing this since before there was even an Internet and to date my record of convincing people to alter their mindset, if only to look beyond their own preconceived ideas, has been about two people. Maybe three.
Sure, government must be paid for, but we pay enough as it is and we don't need to pay any more.
And tax policy being used to "work on a problem" is plainly naive. While that might be the reasoning for selling it to people, the money is often wasted or misappropriated and they end up doing very little about a given problem. And there are those who just believe a nice, big fat tax will change people's ways, which punishes the people least able to afford it and the money often ends up being spent elsewhere anyway.
And I don't believe I've mischaracterized taxation as being theft. It's not, when applied and used CORRECTLY, but that isn't happening. We have given the Congress the right to tax and they have misused that right. Go to CAGW (Citizens Against Government Waste) for some examples of how they waste the money.
I might change my tune a little if the government shows us an actual and HONEST accounting of how they spend our money, but not until then.

As I said, if gasoline use is the problem, ration it or otherwise regulate it based on need. No tax is necessary. Either way, Congress should ask US first. It's our money.

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Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

You know, reading comprehension is really a skill you should develop. It makes not looking silly a lot easier.

The two paragraphs in my statement were clear.

The first was directed to any idiot who thinks that Americans should pay higher taxes to combat it if it's real. See, that would be why I included the word "if" in my statement. Why should Americans suffer the burden for a global problem?

The second paragraph was a separate thought, that being my belief that "climate change" is going to happen, regardless of what humans do. I don't believe we're strong enough to stop it.

So, digest each thought individually, and you might better understand my position. Or don't, and continue to look fuckin' silly...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Naive or not, taxes are intended to facilitate public policy as formulated by government. And in a democracy that's us. I need no instruction on the wastefulness and corruption of politicians. I am merely pointing out that mischaracterizing taxation as theft and objecting to a tax because it will likely be misused or stolen by your elected representatives is missing the point. You have a problem with politicians and you are taking it out on a tax policy. That is useless. The problems of climate change and dependence on middle eastern oil will be paid for. Either we pay today or our children and grandchildren pay much more tomorrow. Even if the politicians steal part and give some more to their friends and waste some through inattention and incompetance, if the problem is addressed it will be a step in the right direction. Obviously I would rather see this effort carried out by honest and competent people but how to get there is a discussion for another thread.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

We shouldn't pay for it because it's not real. But if it is real we shouldn't pay for it because it's somebody elses problem. And anyway we shouldn't pay for it because according to you it can't be stopped - if it exists. Well I sure feel silly now....for taking you off ignore.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Taxes are supposed to pay for running the government, not to pay for social engineering. You want taxes to be a carrot and stick used for restricting energy use. But all you have is the stick.

I'm sure there are other ways to accomplish this. In fact, I've mentioned two possibilities. The people of this country are sick of paying taxes and adding another tax without economizing is typical laziness on the part of government. There is a reason the so-called "tax freedom day" comes 1/4 of the way into the year. (more on this)I for one think that's more than enough. I can't understand why you have no problem with another tax.

Your faith in the government is misplaced, and jumping on the "tax it" bandwagon is short sighted at best. And anything other than paying for the running of government, taxation without public permission IS theft, IMO.

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Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

My faith in government? More accurately my realization that democratic government is the only instrument we have.

We voted for these people. That is the very definition of "public permission". So no, it's not theft.

Efforts to slow global warming, reduce pollution, and increase our national security (which are the things this proposed tax are supposed to support) cannot possibly be classified as "social engineering". I have no idea where you get this stuff from.

People may well be sick of paying taxes. But this problem will inevitably cost every person in this country in one way or another. Hell, it's costing us now. How many billions of dollars and thousands of lives would have been wasted in iraq if we didn't need middle east oil? Crying about taxes and allowing your anger to distract you from the real issues will not change that. Once again, if you consider government corrupt and wasteful then work to oust the criminals. Allowing your anger at them to dictate tax decisions instead of basing it on public policy concerns is ass backwards.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

As well you should for completely misrepresenting my position...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

We are talking US politics here.

In the USA, the bottom 50% of the income ladder pay no federal income taxes and income taxes account for some 3/4 of all federal revenues.

This appears to contradict your assertion.

It would if income taxes were the only ones we pay. In fact, income tax is the only progressive tax. All the rest are regressive, falling more heavily on the poor and middle class and less on the wealthy. This is even more true when w's tax cuts are factored in. And don't forget his campaign to end the taxation of wealth based income like inheritance, interest, dividends, and capital gains.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Which we consistently and blindly rely on to "take care of us" which is not a mindset I prefer to adopt. But it's perfectly understandable why, in the context of your posts, you seem to think government is the only thing we have.
We voted for people who now do the exact opposite of what we elected them to do. Your right. It's not just theft, it's FRAUD too!
The argument between you and I is not the problem, it is your easy acceptance of a government "solution." It's as simple as that.
Obviously. The government attempting to use a penalty to enforce society to do something it seems unwilling to do sounds like social engineering to me.
No, the REAL issue here is the argument over whether we need to government to punish us economically for something, and to charge us MORE to accept that punishment.

You might have a case if the government could be trusted to deliver on its promises, but you're dead wrong on that. Blindly assuming they will suddenly change and start properly doing what they want to charge us to do is naive and foolish.

This argument is going around in circles, but I will leave you with one thing to ponder as you wait for the government to come and take care of everybody.They will have the money, but do you STILL think they'll do the job?

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Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

This is going nowhere. You are still unable to differentiate between two completely seterate issues. Your anger over the behavior of the people you have voted for has made you incapable of discussing public policy at all.

We cannot live without government and democratic government is the only institution which can be used to carry out public policy according to the will of the governed. When you find a way to get rid of the people who have pissed you off so much get back to me. Until then you're just whining and ignoring the problem we're discussing.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Yes, it IS going nowhere. If you bothered to look at the thread title you would see it is NOT about the problem itself but about the use of TAXES, and THAT is what I have a problem with. The people who would collect those taxes have actively worked to STOP anti pollution measures.
If you are so incredibly lazy that when there's a bad situation you think that government will come and pat you on the head and make things all better for you, and a CORRUPT and wasteful government at that, then you have a problem, not me.

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Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.