It is pretty indicative of the left-wing media to completely ignore this, while focusing on Algore and his "The earth will die in 20 years" bullshit.

I am sure this scientist will lose his post, any grants he had, and be declared a deviant homosexual and closeted pedophile by the left as soon as this begins to get attention from other media outlets.

Typical

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Yes, the MSM gives us propaganda on an almost daily basis in support of al gores idiocy.

And they consistently IGNORE and fail to REPORT stories of the many scientists that don't support al gores stupidity.

What is endlessly amusing are those that will tell us that the MSM is in no way BIASED

Who was it that coined the very true phrase "Liberalism is a mental disorder" ?

Whoever it was certainly had it right on the $$ :-)

Christy has been a skeptic for ages and hasn't lost his position. Seems a bit misleading for the article to imply that he's newly "converted" or something.

Does this wipe out all the science that indicates recent global warming is a concern, that it is caused by human activities? Can we all relax now and ignore all the science?

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

I'm still trying to understand how we are also responsible for the heating on mars which started at almost the same time as the earth started warming and by about the same temperature increase. Once this is explained to me, I need someone to explain how the nice graphs of temp and CO2 from ice core data in Al Gore's movie don't mention that the temp changes hundreds of years before the CO2 changes.

Kramer

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“It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve; it more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy."
Albert Shanker, former president of the American Federation of Teachers

Ok. First one has to explain what is warming mars and earth at the same time. The skeptic theory is the sun. But as i have already shown in previos threads the sun's irradiance has actually leveled off and decreased since the 50's and it continues that trend to this very day. The warming on mars and earth beagn in the 70s. Obviously the sun is not the cuplrit.

So if mars is warming what is causing it? According tot this Nature article there have been an increase in 'planet darkening' storms over the last ~30 years.

Global warming and climate forcing by recent albedo changes on Mars : Abstract : Nature

This changes the albedo of mars and causes it absorb more heat. Albedo is how much sunlight is reflected from a surface. A bright surface reflects more heat, a dark surface absorbs more heat. This is the best explanation we have for mars warming. There is no evidence at all of a single cause for the warming on both the earth and mars so the warming on earth must be caused by something else (not the sun and not the albedo of mars).

Your second argument refers to the co2/temperature lag recorded in the antarctic ice core samples. The milankovitch cycle (changes in the earths orbit around the sun) begins to warm the southern hemisphere before there is any release of CO2. But the amount of warming caused by the variability in the earths orbit is not sufficient to cause the amount of warming that is recored in the climate record (the amount required to end an ice age). So, we need an explanation for what amplified the warming caused by variability in the earths orbit around the sun (milankovitch cycle), and this is most likely the release of CO2 from the warming oceans in what is referred to as a positive feedback. This increase in atmospheric CO2 causes further warming which is sufficient to bring the earth out of an ice age. Here is the interesting part, the time it takes for the solubility of CO2 in the ocean to fall enough to release the CO2 is approx. 800 years - which just happens to be the amount of lag recorded in the ice cores. Here is another interesting fact - the earths orbit is not currently in a cycle that would warm be warming the earth, in fact we should be getting cooler. Wow.

In conclusion, the warming on both earth and mars cannot be explained by one single case, the warming on mars actually has a perfectly good mars centered explanation. The CO2/temperature lag is actually expected in our understanding of the earths climate; it does not disprove anthropogenic global warming at all. In fact if should give us serious pause to consider the power of feedback loops in the climate and what consequences our activities might have.


Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

That would be an impressive write up if it wasn't so obviously incomplete and the information specifically cherry picked.

By YOU.

Go back to studying the issue.

Please tell us all what i missed. Im curious. And if i did miss anything important please enlighten us.

Why the hell would you right such a post and leave us all hanging like this? Come on, don't be a twirp, im eager for more info.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Anyone can impress themselves with cherry picked bits and peices of an issue. An issue that is much more complex and, as yet, beyond our fully understanding. Fool themselves into thinking they really know and understand it.

I've gone round-n-round with this global warming "crisis" we've created in our culture(s) enough.

You ask me to "please enlighten us."

That's just it. This issue is still under much study and scrutiny. To draw conclusions this early is meaningless.

As for enlightening "us", I'm still in the process of enlightening MYSELF (as you should be). We're going to have to be patient.

Al Gores foolish little propaganda film might have had ONE good effect at least. That is to encourage more study and REAL scientific application towards the study of climate, climate change and whether or not, and how LARGE the effects humans actually HAVE on the planets climate. If this study can be done without humans silly EGOS bending the results (as we see a lot of in this particular one) we'll get closer to the realities of what is going on. It won't be quick and simple to explain or understand either. You cannot solve a three variable equation if you choose to completely ignore two variables. By choice OR by ignorance.

Much "enlightening" is yet to be done :-)

Wow. You put lots of words and characters in that post and it amounted to nothing more that partisan drivel. You are hardly worth the effort of this sentence...

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Yah, uh huh. I put a lot of "words and characters". Here's what you seem to have really wanted:

drivel drivel


drivel drivel

There are your characters. That you must have been imagining in my previous post # 9.

Oh yeah. Here's some words:

You are hardly worth the effort of this reply

What ? Have you decided it's time to turn this into a contest of who can make a bigger ass of themselves ?

I guess that's easier than admitting I'm right when I say:

This issue is still under much study and scrutiny. To draw conclusions this early is meaningless.

and

Al Gores foolish little propaganda film might have had ONE good effect at least. That is to encourage more study and REAL scientific application towards the study of climate, climate change and whether or not, and how LARGE the effects humans actually HAVE on the planets climate. If this study can be done without humans silly EGOS bending the results (as we see a lot of in this particular one) we'll get closer to the realities of what is going on. It won't be quick and simple to explain or understand either. You cannot solve a three variable equation if you choose to completely ignore two variables. By choice OR by ignorance.

***Yawn*** Let me know when you want to actually discuss something besides Al Gore. You have yet to rebut my post. And i seriously doubt you are capable of such a thing. Instead you resort to blabbermouth drivel more suited to an elementary school. Are you capable of even making a rational argument?

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

You have yet to create a post that is worthy of rebutal. You'd rather post obviously incomplete and specifically cherry picked information.

Like al gore, you're drawing conclusions from incomplete information.

THEN you resort to blabbermouth drivel more suited to an elementary school. Are you capable of even making a rational argument ?

***Yawn***

I'm sure others are mildly entertained by this useless back-n-forth by you and I LOL

...Maybe not.

My sources (and they are credible science sites) say that the energy output of the sun has been increasing by 0.05%/decade since the 1970's AND that the last 70 years of the sun has seen more sunspot activity than at any other period that goes back 8000 years. I don't know where you got your information from.

I am aware of this hypothesis, understand the physics behind it, and have read a few articles on it but, it's a hypothesis. And if I am remembering correctly, they used state of the art infrared cameras to take pictures of today and compared them to 30 year old pictures.




First of all, I've read that the 800 year lag when looked at more closely is more like 400 years. Either way, the temp is changing before the CO2. And if I am not mistaken, the CO2 lag also happens when the temp falls. Second, the CO2 changes could also be (and I think this is the main reason) explained by the fact that when the earth is warmer, more life results which means more CO2 is emitted. When the earth is colder, there is less life and hence, less CO2. Third, when you look at the picture of temp and CO2 from Al Gore's movie, they more or less track each other. If there was an amplification of the temp from the CO2, I don't see anything that indicates this. And one other note on the 70,000 year Milankovitch Theory. It's a theory. For all we know, the sun could have some kind of long term cycle besides its 11 year sunspot cycle.



Andrew, I still highly doubt that it's a coincidence that both mars and earth started warming at the same time and warmed by about the same temp delta when my sources (credible science sites which I have posted links to in other uspoliticsonline threads) say that the energy output of the sun has been increasing by 0.05%/year since the 1970's and that the last 70 years of sunspot activity has been higher than at any other period during the last 8000 years. One other comment: There is evidence that shows when the sun was in low sunspot period, the earth was colder than normal (ex, the Maunder Minimum which corresponded to the little ice age), and when the sun had higher than normal sunspots, the earth was often warmer (ex, the Medieval Maximum which corresponded to the Medieval warming period).

Another reason why I still doubt that humans are primarily responsible for the recent warming is Kyoto. It was designed more to transfer wealth and/or jobs from developed countries to developing countries and as such, wouldn't have really done much to reduce the worldwide amount of CO2 emitted in the atmosphere. And based on this and what some world leaders have recently said in regards to tying poverty with carbon credits and GW, I believe that the UN is more concerned about the fact that 5% of the world's population emits 25% of the world's CO2 and that our standard of living is too high.
And if you read the UN's earth charter, there are numerous references in it to redistribution of wealth and technology, inequity, controlling the world's bounty, etc. I hate to marginalize myself but I don't trust the UN and this is based on what is said in this charter and other UN programmes such as the 'New International Economic Order.'

By the way, you often write detailed and lengthy responses. Are you a professor or expert in this subject (environment)?

Kramer

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“It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve; it more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy."
Albert Shanker, former president of the American Federation of Teachers

I've wondered the same thing myself.

I've discussed this with Andrew before and he always makes a great argument, and a completely reasonable one.

I too have disagreed with him on this issue and then went and checked on things he's said and had my opinion revised (albeit slightly).

Finally, kudos to everyone in this thread for discussing the science involved in this issue and not a lot of the partisan bullshit that GCC threads normally devolve into.

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...Old Europe, a once-dominant region now reduced to sucking at the geopolitical teat of America... they spent the better part of the last millennium conquering the world and taking the good stuff home with them... And what do they get for their troubles? Ungrateful colonies demanding their independence. And after you taught them how to play cricket!...

-Jon Stewart