Oh? How many years is "before too many more"?

Betcha a Coke you're wrong. America won't do a thing until the very last drop is used.

__________________
"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

Chemical extraction is polluting. There is finally the distillation employing CO2 releasing fuel.

You can put a pig into a machine and get sausage--you can't put sausage into a machine and get a pig (without a LOT of solar energy).

I've studied hydrogen a bit, and it seems that hydrogen fuel cells are far from being efficient. Even thoug some advanced fuel cell motors can produce 10kw, they have about 40% electrical efficiency tops, so it takes around 25kw to just sepatate the hydrogen. But hydrogen has very low energy per volume, way lower than petrol, so it needs to be compressed, and that sums up a lot of energy. And even liquid hydrogen has much lower energetical density than petrol (it takes about 20 gallons of hydrogen to produce the same energy in 10 gallons of petrol). Hydrogen is also a lot more dangerous than petrol, because when it explodes, even though it has a much lower energetical density, its explosion is a lot more powerful. So new safety mechanisms still have to be created in case of a crash.

So, as i've said, hydrogen is far from being viable in mainstream transport.
As for biofuels, I think its ridiculous spending food on driving a car, when there is a global fuel crisis.

I have to say that if you are worried about the enviroment, you should use public transport (specialy trains cause they are electric) that will always be more efficient than particular transport. Even buses are more efficient than a toyota pirus, because with a gal they might travel just 10 miles but taking 35 people inside instead of maximum 4.

If you dont want to be in the same ride than negros, spics, chins and me, buy an hybrid Suburban and do 20% more milage than the normal suburban -which is still 2000% less efficient than a bus- and, by all means feel more generous with the enviroment...

I agree with your take on ethanol but I think this statement is partially inaccuarate. Electric cars can right now start to take the place of most private vehicles. While bigger utility, emergency, and military vehicles would still have to run on fuel, private vehicles that use electricity would drastically reduce demand and consumption of fuel. That being said Solar Hydrogen is possibly the most likely long term solution.

The answer to the energy crisis isn't energy.
It's architecture and urban planning, and the 1973 book "Arcology: The City in the Image of Man" by Paolo Soleri is a much better approach to the global resource problem than anything that has to do with finding a substitute for gasoline.

Think about it for 3 seconds, There was almost no gasoline 100 years ago, and yet there was a world that got through the day.
How can gasoline be indispensable?
The answer is in every city and town that has areas more than a hundred years old, a city with housing, shops and stores, schools, offices and factories within walking distance or on mass transit lines.

__________________
“The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine.”

Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi (R)
on McCain

“I decided I didn’t want this guy anywhere near a trigger.”
Senator Pete Domenici, New Mexico (R)
on McCain

“My anger did not help my campaign ... People don’t like angry candidates very much.”

McCain on McCain

I agree, but not totally. Yes urban planning is part of the solution, but its a solution that has to be forced on people. Americans like their suburbs after all, urban sprawl is as American as apple pie. So, can it be done, absolutely. Look to Japan for an excellent example. Will it be done, ha! Don't hold your breath.

So, look beyond the borders of the US for efficient towns and cities. Until then, we better hope we can come up with a solution that can at the least replace gasoline. Of course, don't hold your breath on that either. Meh, what is it about the human race that makes us do things we should of done only after the fact?

__________________
I don't pretend to know everything, educate me, and I'll try to educate you. Shouting matches and insults aren't going to convince me.

Wow, not a single person mentioned biodiesel.

What is really frustrating about this topic, is that it is hard to trust any of these so-called studies.

For example....

A Science Daily article from 2005 said..........

switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;

Now, another article from Science Daily, from 2008 said........

ScienceDaily (Jan. 14, 2008) — Switchgrass grown for biofuel production produced 540 percent more energy than needed to grow, harvest and process it into cellulosic ethanol, according to estimates from a large on-farm study by researchers at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

Here is a study from 2006....

Biodiesel Edges Out Ethanol
Corn ethanol yields an energy dividend but gains are higher with soy biodiesel, a new study shows.
Minneapolis Minnesota [RenewableEnergyAccess.com]

Five University of Minnesota researchers have taken a stand in the long-running debate over whether ethanol from corn requires more fossil fuel energy to produce than it delivers. Their answer? It delivers 25 percent more energy than is used (mostly fossil fuel) in producing it, though much of that 25 percent energy dividend comes from the production of an ethanol byproduct, animal feed.

But the net energy gain is much higher -- 93 percent -- from biodiesel fuel derived from soybeans. And alternative crops such as switchgrass or mixed prairie grasses, which can grow on marginal land with minimal input of fossil fuel derived fertilizers and pesticides, offer the best hope for the future, according to the researchers.

Biodiesel Edges Out Ethanol

For those people who have done the reading, there is ZERO DOUBT that biodiesel is far superior to Ethanol in every single way, except one. The only drawback is it's tendency to gel in cold climates. HOWEVER, there are some new additives being produced to help stop the gelling of biodiesel which appear to be working, although more data is needed

According to a study published last summer in the peer-reviewed Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the environmental benefits of biodiesel are substantially greater than those of ethanol. According to the report, biodiesel provides 93% more net energy per gallon than is required for its production, while ethanol generates only 25% more net energy. The study further suggested that biodiesel, when compared with gasoline, reduced greenhouse emissions by 41%, while ethanol yielded only a 12% reduction. From these viewpoints, it would appear that biodiesel is the clear winner.

Another alleged drawback of biodiesel is the amount of fuel created from acreage.

f only it were that easy. From a land-use and agricultural-efficiency perspective, ethanol appears to be the better choice. That's because an estimated 420 gallons of ethanol can be produced per acre of corn versus only 60 gallons of biodiesel per acre of soybeans. In more practical terms, this means that if the production of biodiesel were ever to increase greatly, the cost of soybean oil would rise significantly.

Of course this is based on soybeans being used to produce biodiesel, but there is a crop which is much better than soybeans for producing biodiesel. What is that crop? Why it is hemp of course. A plant which is grown in EVERY INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT THE USA.

Gee, I wonder why hemp is illegal in the US? Hmm, can't figure it out.

Monday, April 21, 2008

The world is beginning to starve because staple food crops such as corn and soybeans are being diverted to create alternative fuels such as biodiesel and ethanol. The price of flour and bread is skyrocketing because manufacturers are paying more for grains. Organizations that feed the hungry are having trouble getting enough food to function effectively.

Henry Ford found a solution in the early 20th century. He supported the making of ethanol from hempseed. Hempseed oil is also used to manufacture biodiesel, which burns cleaner and is a better lubricant than petroleum-based diesel.

The problem is that our government, because of the "marijuana scare," won't legalize the growing of hemp.

Hemp could feed our cars- OregonLive.com

Hemp needs little fertilizer and almost no pesticides. It can be grown in any state in the USA. It helps the soil where it is grown. Up to 3 crops can be grown per year. Both Ethanol and biodiesel can be made from hemp. There has been a big push lately for Cellulose Ethanol, well guess what plant contains more cellulose than any other plant in the world.

Go ahead and guess.

Several states have asked the FEGOV to allow hemp farming, yet the FEDGOV says no.

NO, NO, NO.

Can't allow hemp to be grown in the US, people might grow more marijuana. Jeesh.

If you are at all about the future of this country, about weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels, about reducing pollution, then you should DEMAND the FEDGOV legalize hemp.

Washington -- The United States is the only developed nation that does not cultivate industrial hemp as an economic crop, according to a Congressional Resource Service report.

“In all, more than 30 countries in Europe, Asia and North America grow hemp,” concluded the report, “Hemp as an Agricultural Commodity.” In the 1990s, the European Union instituted a subsidy program for hemp fiber production. “The United States is the only developed nation in which industrial hemp is not an established crop,” the report says.

Hmmm, why is the USA the ONLY INDUSTRILAIZED NATION IN THE WORLD WITHOUT AN ESTABLISHED HEMP CROP?

WHY?


WHY?

WHY DON'T PEOPLE CARE?

Don't be a sheeple.

Factbook: Hemp

The city is the crowning achievement of civilization.
Clean, beautiful, livable, safe cities provide a far superior lifestyle than the suburbs, and consume a fraction of the energy.
That's the solution to the energy problem, cities, and the answer isn't in some far off country, it's here in the US.
Arcosanti : Home

__________________
“The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine.”

Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi (R)
on McCain

“I decided I didn’t want this guy anywhere near a trigger.”
Senator Pete Domenici, New Mexico (R)
on McCain

“My anger did not help my campaign ... People don’t like angry candidates very much.”

McCain on McCain

For the first time in 30 years, Americans have cut back on their driving! The high price of gasoline & enviormental issues has now finally gotten our attention. Americans are planning on spending the memorial day weekend close to home. It's obvious it takes high prices to get Americans off of the couch to think about alternative energy sources. I like wind. In fact, I think we have enough wind in our state to supply the entire west coast. Our local utility supplier was forced, (through a ballot issue) to start to convert to wind a couple of years ago. Now, we can dedicate how much as a % of our utility bill we can get from wind. It costs a little more, but it's worth it.

Prius just made it's 1 millionth sale. Guess what? Their biggest customer was the United States, with Americans purchasing over 500k of them. Now Prius is on board for their new hybrid, capable of getting 100 miles per gallon. Their new model looks like a compact car with room available for 4 to 5 people. That's the one I am waiting for. Sales of bigger cars & SUV's have plummetted. It's high time American motors gets on board with hybrids & auto's that get 100 miles to the gallon, or they going to get their arses kicked by foreign makers.

Another thing that helps, is the florescent bulb. Watching Oprah one day, an analyst stated if every American just put one of these bulbs in their homes, it would be like taking over 200k autos off of the highways. They're great, they cost a little more than a standard bulb, but save the cost in your electricity bill in one month. They also last a lot longer.

Another thing I am doing is washing all our clothes in cold water. It saves a ton in electricity/gas on your water heater. I was a little intimidated at first, because my husband gets real dirty working in construction. But, I have noticed no difference at all. His clothes are just as clean.

Being in our own construction business. Most of the new homes we are bidding have much more design toward energy efficiency. Solar, wind, new devices & technology are here. We're doing it.

So, with all the doom & gloom we hear, there is also good news. It's here, & it's only going to get better.

I couldn't help but to notice that nobody has suggested Fusion power

Are you talking about that thing called a NUKE PLANT????

Now you should know by now that Americans would NEVER go for a nuke plant in their backyard no matter the savings or the need for Elect power for the TV or Computer......

__________________
Fear the Government

Its sad that in a politics forum ignorance like this should pop up. Firstly, if we could actually obtain sustentable H fusion, all of our energetical, enviromental worries would not be here. In nuclear fusion Hydrogen (actually deuterium) atoms are '"fused" together to create Helium atoms, and loads of energy. As you may know Hydrogen may be easily obtained from water and He isn't polluting at all. the equation that describes the energy output is the well famous E=mc2, and that adds up a lot of energy. To give you an idea of how much energy is created, look at the sun and see, thats it.
Something similar to this is Uranum fission, previously mentioned. Unlike the H fusion, fision splits up the heavy Uranium atom releasing a lot of enery. The output material is radioactive but there are treatments to make it stable. Despite this, Nuclear power maneges to be one of the cleanest, least enviromentally impacting, cheapest, most long term energy resourses.
Sadly, due to popular fear, Nuclear power has remained undeveloped in the US since the 80s, while for example, three mile island shows only one proable long term fatatlity with cancer out of the scandal. There have been other small failures in nuclear power history, but besides Chernobyl (that cant nearly be considered related since it was military purposed), don't exeed 10 people in 50 years. But well, something that is turning up very useful in Europe and Japan, today's Technology leaders, is constricted in the States.