Visit the U.S. Politics Online Discussion Forum Archives!

Sponsored by:

U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum  

Bookmark Us! E-Mail DONATE NOW! Photo Gallery Document Archives Quiz! Register to Vote!!!
Go Back   U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum > Issue Politics > Environmental Issues

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
Angry American's Avatar
Angry American Angry American is offline
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Oct 2006
Location: Birthplace of American Democracy
Posts: 1,791

United_States     Pennsylvania

Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

It pains me that there isn't one Presidential candidate today who isn't on the Ethanol BS bandwagon. Democrats and Republicans alike, have sold their souls to the corn lobbyists, in support of the big fat lie about Ethanol. Billions of our tax dollars are being spent subsidizing the production of Ethanol, which amounts to a zero gain on: our dependence on foreign oil, energy efficiency, and pollution reduction.

Ethanol is less efficient than gasoline to produce, and less efficient than gasoline to use.

Corn Ethanol is making food more expensive, and creating an environmental disaster--increasing the size of the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico from corn field runoff.

Solar Hydrogen production from water is the only viable means to: replace fossil fuels, become energy independent, and drastically reduce pollution. There is enough potential solar energy in the Gulf States to produce enough pure Hydrogen to fuel every car, truck, train, and airplane in the United States tomorrow.

Solar Hydrogen production produces zero pollution, and must be the path taken; we must end the farce about Ethanol NOW!
__________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

"An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens."


-Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by Angry American; 03-10-2008 at 04:55 AM. Reason: Changed to: "... potential solar energy ..."
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
Si modo's Avatar
Si modo Si modo is offline
In a Garden of Eden
Buckeye by birth; Boilermaker by choice

 
Member Since: Jan 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12,046
Blog Entries: 1

United_States    
Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Ethanol as a replacement to gasoline use is a joke.
__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Last edited by Si modo; 03-10-2008 at 05:54 AM. Reason: grammar correction
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
El_Zoido's Avatar
El_Zoido El_Zoido is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: May 2004
Location: Germany , In the Middle of Old Europe
Posts: 4,477

Germany     European_Union

Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Ethanol was a good method 20 years ago... but time has moved forward and you could use "Biomass-to-Liquid" technology to produce twice the amount of gasoline out of plants like corn & crops...

As of today, Wind energy is the most efficent alternative energy source... Solar power is on a good way.


BUT!
Driving your car is a part of the live where there is little choice today...

Building an energy efficent house that does not need heating or exesive cooling is absolutly possible today.
And last time I checked, the amount of Primary Energy a house uses is often higher than what people use to drive around.

Check out "Passive house" standards... the first were build 1980s and now the first that are even cheaper than conventional houses are available
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
goober's Avatar
goober goober is online now
Vice President

 
Member Since: Apr 2005
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 9,975

   
Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Try getting the nomination in Iowa by being against ethanol.
Ethanol from corn is a political by-product, that makes little or no sense except in a country where Iowa is so vital to the political process.
__________________
“The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine.”

Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi (R)
on McCain

“I decided I didn’t want this guy anywhere near a trigger.”
Senator Pete Domenici, New Mexico (R)
on McCain

“My anger did not help my campaign ... People don’t like angry candidates very much.”

McCain on McCain
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
prag prag is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: earth
Posts: 171

   
Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry American View Post
Billions of our tax dollars are being spent subsidizing the production of Ethanol, which amounts to a zero gain on: our dependence on foreign oil, energy efficiency, and pollution reduction.
...Solar Hydrogen production from water is the only viable means to: replace fossil fuels, become energy independent, and drastically reduce pollution. ...we must end the farce about Ethanol NOW!
The National Renewable Energy Lab presumably wants fuels that address both climate change and our dependence on foreign sources.

They say it is 'too early' to pick winners and losers among proposed projects.

It is not 'too early'. Any biofuels project that does not use solar as a primary source of energy for production will create more pollution than order. This is inevitable.

The biofuels projects being funded are not using solar as a primary source. Since only solar's outside energy input to a system can mitigate pollution, we can be sure non-solar produced biofuels can not be winners.

Consider Colorado's first cellulosic ethanol plant proposal. The feedstock and ethanol output are touted (100 ton/day of wood and 2 million gal/yr of ethanol). Significantly missing is quantification of the plant's CO2 production implicated in global warming.

It would seem that one of our highest concerns (climate change) is not worth quantifying. Apparently, the non-solar projects are so technically sweet and entail such a political investment they will continue, even though clearly an a priori boondoggle.

I don't think solar hydrogen is the only solar answer, however. Even solar panels hold promise.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
prag prag is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: earth
Posts: 171

   
Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Ethanol production emits two to nine times the greenhouse gas emissions ‘saved’ by substituting it for gasoline.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
El_Zoido's Avatar
El_Zoido El_Zoido is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: May 2004
Location: Germany , In the Middle of Old Europe
Posts: 4,477

Germany     European_Union

Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by prag View Post
The biofuels projects being funded are not using solar as a primary source. Since only solar's outside energy input to a system can mitigate pollution, we can be sure non-solar produced biofuels can not be winners.
Well, I will not defend ethanol, BUT ethanol is a solar produced biofuel....
Plants are the most efficent & cleanes (no toxics during production) solar power convertes out there...
If you want efficent solar energy you can not ignore the use of plants to convert it...

The really bad things about Ethanol is, that it is only mixed to normal fuel and when imported from the other side of the earth it's not clean at all...

Bottom line, Ethanol is inefficent and outdated....
If you use home grown plants and convert them with modern technics to bio-diesel it is much more efficent...

But what to expect from a government that has no clear line on eccolocial subjects and tries to form a national project...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
prag prag is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: earth
Posts: 171

   
Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Zoido View Post
Well, I will not defend ethanol, BUT ethanol is a solar produced biofuel...
Fermentation/distillation typically uses CO2 fuels.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
El_Zoido's Avatar
El_Zoido El_Zoido is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: May 2004
Location: Germany , In the Middle of Old Europe
Posts: 4,477

Germany     European_Union

Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by prag View Post
Fermentation/distillation typically uses CO2 fuels.
I just meant, that if you use growing sources to produce something, it is solar energy in the end...

My main dislike is simply that it is mixed with petrol fuel... and the mentioned incredible inefficency

But I think modern technics that convert biomass into fuel or chemicals are very promissing... growing and farming fuel locally (not in brazil for the US) seems quite natural...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
Jimbo Jimbo is offline
Lieutenant Governor

 
Member Since: Feb 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 444

United_States     Florida

Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry American View Post
It pains me that there isn't one Presidential candidate today who isn't on the Ethanol BS bandwagon.

Ethanol is less efficient than gasoline to produce, and less efficient than gasoline to use.

Corn Ethanol is making food more expensive, and creating an environmental disaster--increasing the size of the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico from corn field runoff.
What about the possibility of creating biofuel from other plants like switchgrass?

They say this stuff is much more efficient to produce it from because it requires virtually no irrigation or fertilization to grow.

Biofuels from Switchgrass: Greener Energy Pastures

Switch Grass: Fuel for the Future? : TreeHugger

Then there is the Jatropha tree that grows in Mexico, India & elsewhwere that they are also very interested in using in the US as well.

Environmental Capital - WSJ.com : BP Bets on the Jatropha Tree

Domestic Fuel » Archives » Jatropha Tree Could Be Key to Florida Biodiesel
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
Imperator's Avatar
Imperator Imperator is offline
Moderator
Audiatur et altera pars!

 
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 12,233

United_States    
Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

ell we agree for once....its BS and has been since day one.....sorry to say the global warming lobby had of course latched on to this...and well, there ya go....its not one of the answers and these dolts could have just read Henry Fords memoirs...he gave it shot back in the Model T. it was not an efficient burner and to hard to manufacture…etc.....and is still valid to day despite tech. advances..as it takes too much refining time and BTUs to make it….to say nothing of raising the costs of everything that corn etc in all its forms has an influence on…….
__________________
Obama-e fungis nati homines....
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
prag prag is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: earth
Posts: 171

   
Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
What about the possibility of creating biofuel from other plants like switchgrass?

They say this stuff is much more efficient to produce it from because it requires virtually no irrigation or fertilization to grow.
If the 'cooking' is not solar, its a loser per the laws of physics. One doesn't need to know the details.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
Angry American's Avatar
Angry American Angry American is offline
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Oct 2006
Location: Birthplace of American Democracy
Posts: 1,791

United_States     Pennsylvania

Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

IMHO, biofuels are more of a side step, than a step forward, biofuels still pollute, and I seriously doubt that biofuels could be produced in sufficient quantities to replace fossil fuels without damaging the ecosystem.

Just think, a hydrogen powered electric plant that gets its hydrogen from solar active titanium dioxide water splitters fed by a nearby river, releasing oxygen as a by-product at the same time. Then while burning the hydrogen to power the plant, pure water is created and fed back into the river. Can you image the implications? Waste water from a hydrogen electric plant would be pure water.

Cars could have dual cells, one for the hydrogen, and one to collect the water from the hydrogen combustion, and in turn return the water to hydrogen filling stations, which would then return it to the hydrogen refineries in the same trucks used to deliver the hydrogen.

Sounds too good to be true?

Well its too good for America apparently. It probably won't happen until there are enough ways to rip us off.
__________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

"An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens."


-Thomas Jefferson

Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
Jimbo Jimbo is offline
Lieutenant Governor

 
Member Since: Feb 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 444

United_States     Florida

Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by prag View Post
If the 'cooking' is not solar, its a loser per the laws of physics. One doesn't need to know the details.

I think they're researching ways of chemically extracting the plant sugars to make the fuel that wouldn't require burning fossil fuels.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008
Jimbo Jimbo is offline
Lieutenant Governor

 
Member Since: Feb 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 444

United_States     Florida

Re: Politicians WRONG On Energy--The Ethanol BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry American View Post
Just think, a hydrogen powered electric plant that gets its hydrogen from solar active titanium dioxide water splitters fed by a nearby river, releasing oxygen as a by-product at the same time. Then while burning the hydrogen to power the plant, pure water is created and fed back into the river. Can you image the implications? Waste water from a hydrogen electric plant would be pure water.

Cars could have dual cells, one for the hydrogen, and one to collect the water from the hydrogen combustion, and in turn return the water to hydrogen filling stations, which would then return it to the hydrogen refineries in the same trucks used to deliver the hydrogen.

Sounds too good to be true?

Well its too good for America apparently. It probably won't happen until there are enough ways to rip us off.
I've read a little about it. I imagine we'll go through a biofuel phase while solar hydrogen is being perfected. I believe that before too many more years go by, we'll see the end of petroleum as a major fuel source & some clean technology in it's place.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks
Digg del.icio.us StumbleUpon Google

Thread Tools
Display Modes

 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0 Release Candidate 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6
Copyright © 2000 - 2008 U.S. Politics Online