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Environmental Issues Environment, Global Warming, Pollution, Natural Resources, Alternative Energy

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
TSGracchus TSGracchus is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

The reason why it's not a good idea to wait for the market to drive changes in the case of oil is because the effect of market forces driving those changes is likely to be catastrophic and create intense suffering. That's because oil is THE key commodity impacting the price of everything and the productivity of everybody. As the price of oil soars and the supply shrinks, our options narrow and our ability to handle the transition declines.

Because gasoline for cars is so visible and obvious a connection, that's all most people think about when they hear the words "oil shortage" or "oil price increase." But that's only the beginning. Oil doesn't just drive our cars, it heats our homes, grows, transports, and cooks our food, and runs the machines that produce literally everything we make. As the oil peak does its nasty work, we will see famines, worldwide recession combined with runaway inflation, riots, wars, and general ugliness on a scale beyond anything in living memory.

If we had continued our efforts at improving energy efficiency that we began in the 1970s under the prodding of OPEC, and if we had had the foresight to begin a gradual program of transition from low-efficiency dependence on cheap oil to high-efficiency use of alternative energy sources, we would be in good shape now. But because we have waited until the market demanded that we make an immediate change that will, instead, take years to implement even on a crash emergency basis, we are not.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
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AkDiesel AkDiesel is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Just fraken great, more supply and more supply..
Demand is up and supply is up and so is the price at the pumps..

Even with the increase of supply will not mean that there is going to be a lowering of the price at the pumps.

There is a five lane road on the north and south of a two lane bridge.............. as long as that two lane bridge stays inplace traffic is going to be slowed to a snails pace.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
Americano Americano is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by soot View Post
We just had a baby in October and plan on having another one in about 2 years. I'm 6' so it would really tough for me to cram into the front seat of a small car with 2 car seats in the back. Plus you figure in all the shit you need to lug around when you've got kids and it makes sense to have an SUV or minivan. The wife refuses to be caught dead in a minivan. So there you go.

I think we're going to get a smaller 4 cylinder SUV in December which will still save us gas money considering the car she drives now is a 6 cylinder. She also only has a 10 minute commute so we don't use too much gas for that car anyway during the week.

My car is an '07 Mazda 3 we just bought, so that's about as small a 4 cylinder as you're going to get. It gets pretty good milage, but I drive about 80 miles a day, round trip.

It would have been cool to have the hybrid SUV but it just doesn't pay yet. When it does we'll be all over it. Assuming they don't develop some other technology in the next 4 years or so when I'm ready to trade in the Mazda.
What future fuel costs did you use to evaluate the present and future values of a hybrid? When I read 18-month waiting lists I'd think there are people who looked at the fact oil prices have doubled in a little over a year and used a sliding scale of $4-$10/gallon for their calculations. Did you consider the cost of gasoline four-years ago ($1.88/gal) and project that defined rate of increase four-years out from current prices on a monthly basis?

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/ftparea....xls#'Data 2'!A1

We don't drive that much and fuel costs aren't a concern. In considering past increases and what the future holds, I do know that if I was in the work force, raising a family or had other obligations that required extensive driving, I'd be looking for something that returned 50-60mpg right now with convenience and image being dead last on the list of requirements.

There's no way wages are going to increase at a rate to match increasing gasoline costs and USD devaluation. I said it a long time ago and I'll say it again, we're going to see giant SUVs and other gas guzzlers parked in fields waiting to be recycled.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
Americano Americano is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by AkDiesel View Post
Just fraken great, more supply and more supply..
Demand is up and supply is up and so is the price at the pumps..

Even with the increase of supply will not mean that there is going to be a lowering of the price at the pumps.

There is a five lane road on the north and south of a two lane bridge.............. as long as that two lane bridge stays inplace traffic is going to be slowed to a snails pace.
They'll get far better mileage at a snails pace, which will eventually become more important than the convenience of speed.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
Americano Americano is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by partofme View Post
Neither my wife or I drive hybrids but we both have small 4 cylinders and they get good gas mileage. We don't have a need for anything else although it is tight with two car seats for the kids.
Smart.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
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mabus mabus is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

I think it's naive to assume that a single deposit can shift the entire market-shares around. World-wide oil-consumption is rising. Has anyone any statistics on how the world's oil consumption could develope until 2020, by chance?

Here is one for the past:

Many Eyes: World Wide Oil Consumption
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
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jviehe jviehe is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by AkDiesel View Post
Just fraken great, more supply and more supply..
Demand is up and supply is up and so is the price at the pumps..

Even with the increase of supply will not mean that there is going to be a lowering of the price at the pumps.

There is a five lane road on the north and south of a two lane bridge.............. as long as that two lane bridge stays inplace traffic is going to be slowed to a snails pace.
I assume youre referring to refining capacity? If so, youre right. We need more refineries, more domestic supply, and more non oil energy, specifically nuclear. AND we need less govt regulation to allow businesses to cut costs. I seem to recall this all being part of Bushs grand energy plan back in 2001. Wonder how things would be now if it had been implemented.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
Alex Alex is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

I think the concept of "peak oil" is highly dubious. There are a growing number of scientists who now believe that oil is not a fossil fuel, but rather oil is continuously generated by natural processes in the Earth's magma. Essentially that would mean there is an endless supply of oil. This seems to make far more sense that the infantile notion that oil comes from dinosaurs!

The existence of self-renewing oil fields, like Eugene Island off the coast of Louisiana, shatters the peak oil myth.

Here are a few article for anyone interested.
Abiogenic petroleum origin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Myth of "Peak Oil" - Charles Feathestone - Mises Institute
Discovery and development of oil & gas fields in Dnieper-Donets Basin (1994)
abiotic oil debate
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
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erikvv erikvv is online now
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
I think the concept of "peak oil" is highly dubious. There are a growing number of scientists who now believe that oil is not a fossil fuel, but rather oil is continuously generated by natural processes in the Earth's magma. Essentially that would mean there is an endless supply of oil.
Why would it mean there is an endless supply? Wouldn't the formation of oil still be a very slow process?

Quote:
This seems to make far more sense that the infantile notion that oil comes from dinosaurs!
Well, they found fossils in fossil fuel reserves (not dinos afaik but plants) so why would it make more sense? Are there plants growing in the magma?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
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Bunz Bunz is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

I see a bunch of issues here. Firstly, I am not convinced having the majority of control over a commodity in a far away land is a bad idea, especially there. Whilst we would have less to do with middle eastern politics, we would also have to contend with China and India taking a much greater role there. Do we really want the two largest holders of US debt in the world to be cohorts in such a matter?

As for Brazilian oil, sure but there has been quite a bit of action going on in Alaska lately. Including the Chukchi Sea lease sale. Shell is saying it is the biggest N.American find since Prudhoe and may be larger. Also, the State of Alaska is clamping down tough on Exxon with the situation over the Pt. Thompson field. Conoco Phillips and BP are self financing the Alaska Natural Gas Line hooking into through Alberta. The largest private construction project ever. So Alaska will be looking to produce more lots more oil in the next 10 years and beyond, this is outside of ANWR.

The issue as someone else said earlier, we need more refineries and the high prices right now are a reflection of a poor dollar. We drive up our debt to obscene irresponsible levels and this is the pinch we find ourselves in.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
SomeMarine SomeMarine is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
They'll get far better mileage at a snails pace, which will eventually become more important than the convenience of speed.
Not always true.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
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goober goober is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikvv View Post
Why would it mean there is an endless supply? Wouldn't the formation of oil still be a very slow process?



Well, they found fossils in fossil fuel reserves (not dinos afaik but plants) so why would it make more sense? Are there plants growing in the magma?
This is a theory that Soviet scientists came up with, that the methane gas we see in the gas giant planets like Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus, was a part of the material that formed earth and is dissolved in the core, and as it works it's way to the surface the methane gets cooked into larger hydrocarbons, forming crude oil.
Under this theory, there would be oil just about anywhere on the planet if you drill deep enough.
Western scientists have a theory that organic matter collected was subducted and cooked into petroleum, a theory that implies that there is a substantially smaller amount of petroleum than would be predicted by the Soviet theory.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
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partofme partofme is online now
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
I think the concept of "peak oil" is highly dubious. There are a growing number of scientists who now believe that oil is not a fossil fuel, but rather oil is continuously generated by natural processes in the Earth's magma. Essentially that would mean there is an endless supply of oil. This seems to make far more sense that the infantile notion that oil comes from dinosaurs!

The existence of self-renewing oil fields, like Eugene Island off the coast of Louisiana, shatters the peak oil myth.

Here are a few article for anyone interested.
Abiogenic petroleum origin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Myth of "Peak Oil" - Charles Feathestone - Mises Institute
Discovery and development of oil & gas fields in Dnieper-Donets Basin (1994)
abiotic oil debate
Actually it is thought that the majority is from the fossils of plants rather than dinosaurs.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
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Bunz Bunz is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by partofme View Post
Actually it is thought that the majority is from the fossils of plants rather than dinosaurs.
Yes, under massive amounts of pressure that the average person cannot fathom. It is a common miscoception that it is dead dinosaurs, and makes for a convenient term when one wants to put forth one political view or another.
Much of it zooplankton, algae etc, basically pond scum. Plus the current view of the scenery in modern times does not reflect its appearance. Saudi Arabia for instance used to be under quite a rich sea, as was the north slope of Alaska.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008
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AkDiesel AkDiesel is offline
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Re: Brazil Oil Finds May End US Reliance on Mid East

Quote:
Originally Posted by jviehe View Post
I assume youre referring to refining capacity? If so, youre right. We need more refineries, more domestic supply, and more non oil energy, specifically nuclear. AND we need less govt regulation to allow businesses to cut costs. I seem to recall this all being part of Bushs grand energy plan back in 2001. Wonder how things would be now if it had been implemented.
It is good to see that at least one person understands the story.

The last one to be built was the Marathon's Garyville, Louisiana facility in 1976. Now from that time to today there have been over 100 closed.

We have been on this lane reduction from the years of Carter and the other Dems that controled the halls of D.C.
Even when the other side of the coin got into power there was really no change , maybe a bit faster down hill but no stopping of the slide.

And now that more americans have stocks and 401ks that is putting a higher demand on better returns and higher stock prices. So thanks America for the greed on wall street....

There was a time that people said that man could not fly,, and today we are.
There was a time that people said that man could not go over 35mph, and today we are.
There was a time that people said that man could not sail the oceans, and today we are.
The list continues.... ways of drilling be it in the north sea, north slope, or any other place is better today than 50 years ago.
Refineries can be built better today but sadly people say not my back yard but we wish to have 1950's prices and 1990's stock returns...

Could we do better for energy? yes and one way would be to have the nut jobs and the government to get a new set of glasses to truely see what is going on.
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