Are you disputing what a dozen government agencies say? Why?

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I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.
~~ Socrates

that's nice... dated 2001... my TO refers to a report produced by a dozen government agencies... are you saying that you don't believe what the government says now because they are talking about what we are to expect in the coming years because of Global Warming instead of trying to make you afraid of your shadow that everyone wearing a turban is a terrorist?

How many people died last time we had a warming period like this? what was that? 650,000 years ago?? How many cities were engulfed by the rising seas?

pssst... M? This thread isn't about Nobel Prize Winner Al Gore... that's a nice article, why don't you start your own thread with it instead of trying to derail mine.

Thanks.

Based on how the weather has been this year... is it any different than what you experienced growing up?

Twelve US Government Agencies created the report you are poopooing... don't like it? Take it up with the bush administration...

__________________
I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.
~~ Socrates

How silly you are. You make me laugh when you play like this. The letter-to-the-editor linked is from 2004 and you think scientists still speak of a consensus, especially after the rest of the scientific community bitch-slapped them down as they were soiling all of us. You really should read more from the scientific community.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Do you really think the American government has been completely trustworthy at any point in the last hundred years or so? I'd say it all started going downhill when the last politician that was alive in 1776 died.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

Ah, pssst ... Stripey, that article wasn't about the Hypocritical Extremist Environmentalist Liar Al Gore. It was about the "debate about whether global warming is spiking the intensity of hurricanes [and] that [e]ven those who agree that humans are causing global warming disagree about whether it is making hurricanes worse."

Have you heard about hurricanes Stripey? Having been through a few of them (I live in Florida) I can tell you they are basically by definition, extreme weather.

The article pretty much undercuts your assertions that there is a scientific consensus about Global Warming (there isn't), its affects on hurricanes (extreme weather), that the debate is over, and the real threats we face regarding hurricanes has to do with Global Warming.

The article lists a few scientists: Kerry Emanuel, an MIT professor of atmospheric science (a believer).
Thomas Knutson, who works for a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration laboratory in Princeton, N.J. (a believer).
Jay Gulledge, senior scientist with the Pew Center on Global Climate Change. (a believer).
Chris Landsea, science and operations officer for the National Hurricane Center, (another believer, but he doesn't see evidence that warming has affected hurricanes. As far as he is concerned the article reports "one thing is clear: That record is incomplete").
Stanley Goldenberg, a hurricane researcher at NOAA's Atlantic Oceanographic and Meteorological Laboratory in Miami, (who does not believe that human activity is causing Global Warming). He is quoted in the article, "There's not a single scientist that I know at AOML or at the National Hurricane Center that feels that we have seen in any measurable increase in hurricane activity because of global warming."

So what are the reasons for warning Floridians about an increased threat due to hurricanes? There are two reasons, one has to do with an alleged effect of warming, there other has nothing to do with climate or weather. The first, as reported: "As seas warm, they expand. Levels rise slightly. Over 100 years, that could add a foot or two to the storm surge of hurricanes, assuming the warming trend continues."

The second is coastal development. As reported: "the number of coastal residents increased 10-million between 1950 and 2000, according to historian Gary R. Mormino in the book Land of Sunshine, State of Dreams."

This is not in the article, but I have seen in the past extremist environmentalist present the increase in property damage due to hurricanes as proof that hurricanes are becoming more intense. There is no mention by these extremists the increased population of those living along the coastline which is the real reason costs (property loss and lives lost) have increased. Bjorn Lomborg reports this in his excellent The Skeptical Environmentalist. Amazon.com: The Skeptical Environmentalist: Measuring the Real State of the World: Bjorn Lomborg: Books

At the end of your article it lists the government agencies "Participating in the Climate Change Science Program are the Agency for International Development, Department of Agriculture, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Institute of Standards and Technology, Department of Defense, Department of Energy, National Institutes of Health, Department of State, Department of Transportation, U.S. Geological Survey, Environmental Protection Agency, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, National Science Foundation and the Smithsonian Institution."

Notice that Thomas Knutson and Stanley Goldenberg cited in the article work for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Curtis Krueger finished his article with, Your dogmatic and unquestioning adherence to the myth that human activity is the primary cause of Global Warming is a sure sign that you are as much a fanatic as any religious fundamentalist. I have not derailed your thread, it collapsed under the weight of the facts. Have you heard of facts Stripey? Like Al Gore you ignore and deny any facts that contradict your religious beliefs.

tashi deleks,

M

PS - For those interested in rising above the rhetoric here is a list of books for your reading pleasure. Not all of them are about environmentalism or the environment.
Amazon.com: Free Market Environmentalism: Terry L. Anderson, Donald R. Leal: Books
Amazon.com: In a Dark Wood: The Fight Over Forests and the Myths of Nature: Alston Chase: Books
Amazon.com: Playing God in Yellowstone: The Destruction of America's First National Park: Alston Chase: Books
Amazon.com: Biologists under Hitler: Ute Deichmann, Thomas Dunlap: Books
Amazon.com: The Logic Of Failure: Recognizing And Avoiding Error In Complex Situations: Dietrich Dorner: Books
Amazon.com: The Little Ice Age: How Climate Made History, 1300-1850: Brian M. Fagan: Books
Amazon.com: Hard Green: Saving the Environment from the Environmentalists A Conservative Manifesto: Peter Huber: Books
Amazon.com: The Ecological Indian: Myth and History: Shepard Krech III: Books
Amazon.com: The Skeptical Environmentalist: Measuring the Real State of the World: Bjorn Lomborg: Books
Amazon.com: Cool It: The Skeptical Environmentalist's Guide to Global Warming: Bjørn Lomborg: Books
Amazon.com: The Satanic Gases: Clearing the Air about Global Warming: Patrick J. Michaels: Books
Amazon.com: Consuming Power: A Social History of American Energies: David E. Nye: Books
Amazon.com: After the Ice Age: The Return of Life to Glaciated North America: E. C. Pielou: Books
Amazon.com: Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed (The Institution for Social and Policy St): James C. Scott: Books
Amazon.com: Man and the Natural World (Penguin Press History): Keith Thomas: Books
Amazon.com: But Is It True?: A Citizens Guide to Environmental Health and Safety Issues: Aaron Wildavsky: Books
Amazon.com: Searching for Safety: Aaron Wildavsky: Books
And for a little fun: Amazon.com: State of Fear: Michael Crichton: Books

Here is an example of the extremist rhetoric we hear from environmentalists: "We simply cannot afford to gamble against this possibility by ignoring it. We cannot risk inaction. Those scientists who say we are entering a period of climate instability [i.e. unpredictability] are acting irresponsibly. The indications that our climate can soon change for the worse are too strong to be reasonably ignored." (p. 237) The funny thing about the above statement, which we hear echoed by so many today, is that it comes from Lowell Ponte's The Cooling which was published in 1972 about a coming Ice Age. Amazon.com: The Cooling: Has the Next Ice Age Already Begun?: Lowell Ponte: Books

__________________
"They haven't got Brains, any of them, only grey fluff that's blown into their heads by mistake, and they don't Think." -- Eeyore, The House At Pooh Corner

Sit like a mountain,
Breathe like the wind,
Mind like the Sky.

When all the Gods are crazy, who do you pray to?

And for those interested in rising above the denialist rhetoric as well as the alarmist rhetoric, i recommend the following websites:

Climate Change: Discovery of Global Warming
Skeptical Science: Examining Global Warming Skepticism

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

From the guy who As the best form of governance, because he believes :LOL: Yea, if you're lucky free to die at the old age of 35. If you're not so lucky, your free to die as something's lunch. Watching most of your children dying before the age of 5 is just a great expression of freedom. Nothing like slash and burn and hunting an area clean and then moving on to do it all over again in another region for ecological health.

One of the books I listed above was Amazon.com: The Ecological Indian: Myth and History: Shepard Krech III: Books Here are a few others you of all people should read: Amazon.com: Sick Societies: Challenging the Myth of Primitive Harmony: Robert B. Edgerton: Books
Amazon.com: Constant Battles: Why We Fight: Steven LeBlanc, Katherine E. Register: Books
Amazon.com: War before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage: Lawrence H. Keeley: Books

While I question the idea of a One World Government as a wise move today, like your adherence to the religious belief that human activity is the primary cause of Global Warming, the idea of turning on the-way-back-machine to some tribal paradise that never existed, is just as foolish and unwise, and another example of a religious belief without scientific foundation. I bring this stuff up since it is all yoked to your misguided beliefs about the environment.

I have been to your wonderful little websites, check out Roy W. Spencer: Global Warming and Nature's Thermostat
MichaelCrichton.com | Environmentalism as Religion
MichaelCrichton.com | The Case for Skepticism on Global Warming for something that challenges your religious views. Its good for you, I do it regularly.

Its interesting the tactics of the Left and the environmental alarmists: Is Wikipedia Promoting Global Warming Hysteria? | NewsBusters.org
Wikipropaganda On Global Warming, National Review: Wikipedia Is A Stunning Example Of How The Propaganda Machine Works - CBS News

Classical liberalism was not a political philosophy that supported censorship or was afraid to engage in intelliectual honest debate. Sadly, the left today does not share those characteristics with classical liberalism.

tashi deleks,

M

__________________
"They haven't got Brains, any of them, only grey fluff that's blown into their heads by mistake, and they don't Think." -- Eeyore, The House At Pooh Corner

Sit like a mountain,
Breathe like the wind,
Mind like the Sky.

When all the Gods are crazy, who do you pray to?

Thanks for the totally irrelevant post.

From someone who is quoting an author of fiction books in regards to climate science.... Seriously, that is so lame.

Anytime you would like to discuss any of the actual science, and just science, let me know. I would be more than happy, although i doubt you could oblige.

If you want to talk fiction move it over to the pop media section, put on your tin-foil hat and join a book club or something.

Andrew

__________________
Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

The typical response of someone who cannot argue their position with reason or logic. It is obvious that you cannot disput Crichton's arguments or statements in MichaelCrichton.com | Environmentalism as Religion or MichaelCrichton.com | The Case for Skepticism on Global Warming , if you could, or at least believed you could, you would have tried. So rather than attempt to you reply with the very critical comments of "so lame" and "put on your tin-foil hat."

So what's your education? Michael Crichton went to Harvard College as an undergraduate, graduating summa cum laude in 1964. He went on to graduate from Harvard Medical School, obtaining an M.D. in 1969, and did his post-doctoral fellowship study at the Jonas Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, California, from 1969 to 1970. Crichton is known for the depth of his research. If you want to claim that he is just an author of fiction books, that's your choice. It should then be easy for you to prove his statements false or wrong. That you don't try says a lot.

Even though I have already reported on the bias of wikipedia regarding Global Warming I think Crichton's bio is safe.
Michael Crichton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I noticed that you ignored the other website: Roy W. Spencer: Global Warming and Nature's Thermostat

My post you originally replied to was discussing the science. You ignored that along with the several books I listed.

tashi deleks,

M

__________________
"They haven't got Brains, any of them, only grey fluff that's blown into their heads by mistake, and they don't Think." -- Eeyore, The House At Pooh Corner

Sit like a mountain,
Breathe like the wind,
Mind like the Sky.

When all the Gods are crazy, who do you pray to?

So what.

It's a paper by a MIT professor that shows CO2 levels at 4000 PPM at one point and it also shows that in general, when CO2 was high, temps were low, when CO2 was low, temps were high which is completely at odds as to what the climate change people are saying.


No.

I don't believe the science behind AGW is sound. And there are politics behind AGW that also raise questions in my mind as to the motives behind AGW.

And are you saying that you trust governments? I take it you trust the UN's conclusions. Well, the same UN couldn't even get the head count estimate close on the number of Africans with AIDS. How in the world would you trust them with something infinitely more complex as climate prediction years from now?

Kramer

__________________
“It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve; it more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy."
Albert Shanker, former president of the American Federation of Teachers

Irrelevant. The claim is not that humans are the only factor affecting climate, or that climate would never change without human activity.

Global ice is not thickening in Antarctica. Therefore, this is not to be blamed on humans or anything else.

Climate is not the same as weather. The weather -- micro-fluctuations in meteorological conditions from day to day -- will remain a chaotic system no better predictable in detail in the future. However, we can predict (for example) that the average temperature in August 2008 will exceed the average temperature in January 2008 in the state of Arkansas. Similarly, we can predict that higher average temperatures will result from an increase in the partial pressure of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

They are not predicting the entire future of the planet in detail. They are merely predicting that when you change the partial pressure of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, temperatures overall will rise; observing that we have increased the partial pressure of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere; observing that global temperatures have risen; and drawing the logical conclusion.

Yes, we do, and the answer is "yes." Or rather, it was the same greenhouse effect. There has always been a greenhouse effect since there has been carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor, etc. in the atmosphere. If there were no greenhouse effect, the planet would be a ball of ice incapable of supporting life. Human beings are not creating the greenhouse effect; we are merely increasing it.

Your wish is granted.

Of course, common sense only works when you have the right data and understanding of general applicable scientific principles. Hopefully this will help.