Yes. How is any of that relevant to the fact that we currently destroying the ability of the forests and oceans to absorb and store CO2, while at the same time putting the CO2 from oil and coal into the atmosphere?

Andrew

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“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

It is relevant because it demonstrates that the Earth has changed all by herself, in drastic, radical ways, and life continues on anyways.

See, there is this concept called "Survival of the Fittest", which says that if a species is not able to adapt itself to changing conditions in its inviroment, then it dies off to allow more resources for thoses species that CAN adapt and change.

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Obama isn't change...

He's just a different kind of wrong!

Yes, but how relevant is it to the fact that the current warming is caused by human activity?


Andrew

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“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

Yeah, I have a question(s). Were the continental land masses very different from what we have today? Do you think that might have any effect at all on circulation?

P.S. They even talk about it in your link.

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He who learns but does not think is lost! He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger. --Confucius

Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors.
--African proverb

Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it.
--Albert Einstein

Putting back into the atmosphere what came from the atmosphere. Again, plant life loves CO2.

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Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. ---P. J. O'Rourke

That CO2 was not part of the carbon cycle in recent geologic history. Are you still denying that CO2 is a GHG?

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

In order for that to be a fact, it has to stand up against scientific peer review and be repeatable. Even the latest and greatest models have been proven wrong, because they have failed to predict the current cooling cycle the Earth is undergoing right now. None of the alarmists models predicted this cooling.

Also, what is the average Global temperature SUPPOSED to be? Before you can tell me I have a fever, you have to first know what my temp is supposed to be under normal conditions. So what is it for Earth? tThe Earth has spent much more time at 22degC than at 12degC. Is 22degC the "normal" temp for the Earth?

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Obama isn't change...

He's just a different kind of wrong!

The fact that AGW is real does stand up to peer review, overwhelmingly. Im not sure where you get the idea it has to be repeatable. The evolution of human beings over millions of years is a fact, but it is not repeatable in a lab.

BTW, the fact of AGW does not rely on models. It relies on observation more than anything.

Models are only used for forecasts and climate scientists would be the first to tell you that the models are far from perfect.

Your question is nonsensical, and i answered it in the other thread. There is not an absolute temp for the earth. There is however a narrow range of temperatures under which life as we know it can survive.

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

The key terms in your definition "ice age" are "period of expansion". the ice sheets are not expanding, they are melting.

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The bush administration and bank lobbyists proudly killing our economic system - 2003.

I see where a majority of the people are first going to cook.

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The bush administration and bank lobbyists proudly killing our economic system - 2003.

I agree,

If a plan was put in place to change our excessive ways, You would be 100% correct.

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The bush administration and bank lobbyists proudly killing our economic system - 2003.

In order for the human species to adapt, we will need to minimize our growing contribution of green house gas pollutants.

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The bush administration and bank lobbyists proudly killing our economic system - 2003.

Peers without any commonsense, perhaps.

The Earth has had cycles from hot to cold and back again over time, with or without humans. That is a fact. That people are using it to scare small children into buying deadly Mercury lightbulbs, is sad.

Umm, because that's how you prove something scientifically.

Isaac Newton observed the behavior of moving objects. He then developed equations from his observations, that explained how a mass in motion behaves. When his equations were perfected, he could predect what would happen before setting the exdperiment in motion. And moreover, anyone else who took his equations and applied them to their variables, the same level of predictability is had.

Then it's not a FACT yet, just a work in progress.

...and the current observations are that the Earth is cooling.

Which mean that man-made global warming is at best, a theory. An unproven theory that is in opposition to current observations.

So, what is that temp-range? I know some people who live in parts of the World with temps over 120DegF for more than half the year. Some people even survive down in Antarctica with temps below -20degF. The average global temp right now is around 68degF.

The sad thing is, in the 70's you had me, when the issue was about keeping our place clean. (Native American crying over a dirty landscape). You lost me when you started screaming "The sky is falling, the sky is falling" and scaring little kids to manipulate them.

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Obama isn't change...

He's just a different kind of wrong!

So whats the point of this thread? Are we to believe that its ok to pollute green house gases to IDLH levels?

This would be consistent with the bush doctrine.

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The bush administration and bank lobbyists proudly killing our economic system - 2003.

You fail to appreciate or understand the peer review process.

So its a conspiracy? The fact that cycles are present in the climate system does not exclude the fact that those cycles can be effected by destroying forests, oceans, and rapidly pumping massive amounts GHG's into the atmosphere.

Logic is your friend, use it.

I would say repeatability is desirable - but the validity of a scientific hypothesis rests mainly on its falsifiability (it cannot be set up in a way that proving it wrong is impossible). What makes AGW convincing is really just the overwhelming amount of evidence for it, combined with the lack of any other explanation. Given that climate science has been saying generally for well over 40 years that adding CO2 into the atmosphere while systematically destroying the capacity of the earth to absorb CO2 will cause an increase in average global temperatures has been proven correct through extensive observation.

The fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas is proven by laboratory analysis over and over again going on for over 100 years, starting with John Tyndall and repeated successively since then. This is indisputable.

Its a proven fact that the surplus CO2 in the atmosphere is anthropogenic, also indisputable.

The fact that oceans and forests are carbon sinks is also indisputable.

The fact that oceans have been warming and acidifying, glaciers are melting rapidly, ice sheets are melting rapidly, desertification is spreading, species are migrating, the speed of all this globally is unprecedented in the paleoclimate record, and there are no other known mechanisms that can account for the observed warming.

Here are some handy links that discuss the empirical evidence for AGW.

Empirical evidence that humans are causing global warming
Global Warming : Feature Articles
The Discovery of Global Warming - A History


Yes, it is a fact. You would not be here to deny it otherwise.

...relative to the current temperatures. This is short term variability, and its present throughout the instrument temperature record of the last 100 years. The truth is that the last 10 years are still warmer than the previous 10 years. Note that the long term trend is for warming, with plenty of periods of short term plateaus or cooling. To say that recent cooling is unexpected or surprising to climate scientists is just plain ignorant.

Here:



Current observation continues to re-affirm the theory, short term variability does not impact the theory at all.

Life as we know it thrives at a global average temperature of around 14 degrees Celsius.

If you want a sense of what the consequences for life on this planet are with each degree we warm i can only suggest the following material.

Amazon.com: Six Degrees eBook: Mark Lynas: Kindle Store

Amazon.com: The Revenge of Gaia: Earth's Climate Crisis & The Fate of Humanity (9780465041695): James Lovelock: Books

Effects of global warming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A couple of the biggest near term worries is that the glaciers are retreating rapidly. Literally billions of people and animals depend directly on glaciers for water. And a warmer earth means more severe drought. When you add dwindling water supplies to extreme drought you are looking at a near term disaster for most people on the planet.

I'm sorry you have a tin foil hat that causes you to believe this is all a vast conspiracy to manipulate children that involves tens of thousands of scientists from every country in the world doing research and making observations spanning decades.

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen