Nope. The only reason i hate this culture is because of its treatment of its habitat. This is how cultures are created, specifically by how they relate to the wild world around them.

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

You assume them to be mindless and easily led by the nose.

You fail to see how they organized and assumed what poser they gained in the GOP via planning, strategy and execution.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

The Population Issue (which is behind all of them) will resolve itself first.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

That could very well be. Its also the issue that people will not talk about addressing.

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

Maybe we just want to go on the occasional vacation. Perhaps we want to get out of our houses every once in a while. You know, some of this whole "work" thing is actually about having a career, and having a life... it's not all about the big bad "mass consumer culture".

I agree that those things are bad, and we need to change the culture somewhat. But this is where consession comes in.

I consider myself somewhat of an environmentalist, but probably more in line with the ones who you disagree with. I'd be willing to meet you half way, but I'm not sure you'd be willing to bend so much.

That has even less chance of attaining agreement. And so people will starve in large numbers. Just a matter of when.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

Cars and planes simply could not exist if they were only used for recreation. Business is what makes them economically viable.

Well, i don't compromise just for the sake of compromise. But, if halfway meant that we would be heading in the right direction year after year than i'm certainly game.

If halfway just means some crappy politicians can hide behind some phony success in order to win elections, i want no part of it.

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

People have been starving in large numbers for decades. The most effective (and horrible) way of solving the population problem would be to end all food charity. Overpopulated countries would drop pretty quickly down to a carrying capacity their land can support. All food charity does is make starvation in poor countries perpetual, and bring with it a host of other problems like the spread of disease and habitat destruction.

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

not like whats coming, not even close. and not just poor countries.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

Well, I was referring to using cars to get to our daily jobs, but your point about recreational use is understood. Is it ok, in your mind, if I travel to and from work each day? Even if my car only emits water and rainbows?

Of course, that's what I meant.

Hey, i drive to and from work every day. I'm not going to judge anybody in particular on their dependence on this culture. I'm as dependent as anybody else, probably more so since i live essentially at the edge of the arctic circle.

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

As a demographic, I wouldn't say 'mindless' at all. I would agree with "easily led by the nose". There's a built in tendency there - anyone who values unquestioning faith (in religion or anything else) is going to be more predisposed to taking things they're told from a source they respect at face value.

They didn't organize. Reagan organized them while assembling a winning (but unsustainable long term) voting coalition.

And, how are they doing on their main issues, by the way? Society's take on homosexuality? Criminalizing abortion? Introducing an alternative to evolution into mainstream primary education? Censoring naughty speech on the airwaves? Stopping the general moral decline of society?

Any of those going well for the religious right, or do people just promise it to them and then do nothing about it, over and over and over again?

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

In the case of planes, I might argue that government subsidy makes them economically viable. You've got more to contend with than free/managed market alone.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

keep on believing that



they only started post Bob Dole




DOMA
constitutional ammendsments banning same sex marriage in 26 states
national views re abortion swinging conservative
alternative evolution is a rather minor fringe issue
TV content ? fines and penalties and a 15 second lag
moral decline ? well, it was 45 years in the making

not too bad

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

well Andy, I have to give a hat tip, you are constant and true on this issue.

we may not agree but I can appreciate a solid stance.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand