I call your attention to a very blunt statement muttered by Richard Branson last week.

“If we could come up with a geoengineering answer to this problem, then Copenhagen wouldn’t be necessary,” he said. “We could carry on flying our planes and driving our cars.”

Branson on the Power of Biofuels and Elders - Dot Earth Blog - NYTimes.com

The environmental philosophy that I most closely associate with is horrified by statements like this. The last thing we want is some tech fix that allows this culture to persist as if there are no deeper problems with the way we go about business on this planet.

But then there are mainstream environmentalists, or greens.... they would jump on any perceived fix that allows business as usual - be it cap & trade or some sort of geoengineering fix.

The two groups do not and will never agree, they will never organize together, and they will spend tremendous amounts of time & energy fighting each other.

This is why the left can't organize effectively like the right.

Andrew

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“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

so no compromise is posible with those who feel as you do ?

may be worth considering.

you know you will be left out altogether if you persist. if that really best ?

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Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

I think compromise has to go both ways. I'm extremely doubtful about geoengineering, but i would certainly consider it. But at the same time i see no point in even bothering if its only used to continue propping up a mass-consumer culture. If that persists there is no point is sequestering CO2 from the atmosphere, we will just escalate our drive towards ecocide with a false sense of security. Essentially why i find Branson's statement so disturbing.

Andrew

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“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

I'm not sure I understand the second bolded statement (emphasis mine). The coalition that until recently formed the Republican party wasn't formed by making the contradictory philosophies within the coalition agree, but rather by tailoring the message to individual groups and making them think they were the favored son. If someone came along that successfully paid lip service to one kind of environmentalism while practicing the other, I think a temporary coalition could be formed, and I see no reason it couldn't be organized effectively or even bolstered.

As an interesting example, I'd imagine that what you believe is very compatible with Christian fundamentalism/Bible literalism. If someone in a position of relative influence pointed out that your brand of environmentalism was really just a method of preserving the Earth as God miracled it 5000 years ago, a lot of fundies might hop on board. And, that group tends to be easily mollified with lip service, so you might then get a politician paying lip service to your favored philosophy and practicing the other one. Your objections would might be drowned out by others more ready to accept lip service.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Yes, but you are referring to a group that is deeply distrustful of any establishment, be it religious, corporate, or political. I'm not sure they could be as easily mollified as the extreme christian right.

Andrew

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“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

So a solution that (in some manner*) provides for the sort of decrease of greenhouse gasses you would seek is not acceptable ? Ever ?

Honestly Andy, I think it's the best deal you can get.

That being said, you barter ahd deal to get the best possible. Thats a given.






* either by capture or some manner of reduction of the emmission or some as yet unimagined other magic

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

you boys do not "get" the religious right.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

I don't see the point if a program to decrease or sequester excess CO2 is not coupled with a significant change in consumption levels.

Check out these graphs and tell me how flattening only one of those graphs would make any difference at all to our predicament?






Grist's Store - powered by Amazon.com - The Bridge at the Edge of the World: Capitalism, the Environment, and Crossing from Crisis to Sustainability

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

Probably true. But, if their voice became the minority one expressing their position, it wouldn't matter. That is my point.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Would you care to elaborate, or is "nuh-uh" your final answer?

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

And here we see Andrew's real issue, which is not the environment but rather a hatred of the culture (even though he is an active, willing participant in it).

Why would you think my concern for the environment is not related to my hatred of this culture, and vice versa?

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

what's wrong with continuing to drive our cars and fly our airplanes if we can do it without harming the environment?

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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine

Why would we continue to fly and drive if no to continue to pursue a mass consumer culture? The environment would still be under constant pressure from human consumption, we would simply have figured out a way to get the CO2 from the air. Nothing much would have changed, things like deforestation, over-fishing, population growth, desertification, etc would still continue apace.

Andrew

__________________
“...corporations and those who run them cannot stop exploiting resources and amassing wealth until they have... .I cannot finish this sentence, because the truth is that can never stop; like cancer, they can only continue to expand until they kill the host.”

-- Derrick Jensen

I suspect, given your follow-on posts here, that environmentalism is but a convenient tool for your hatred of the culture.

Matt