Thread: questions 'bout the free market & evolution

Who cares about 'just'? Isn't the pertinent question rather more selfish - are humans better off with or without bluefin tuna in the ocean?

Originally Posted by chrisl

Who cares about 'just'? Isn't the pertinent question rather more selfish - are humans better off with or without bluefin tuna in the ocean?

I tend to agree that that is the pertinent question. But history has shown that radical changes to the ecological balance can produce some pretty nasty unintended consequences, consequences that can matter a great deal to a great many humans. It seems worthwhile to avoid mowing down an entire species of animal if it can be avoided.

Two separate issues entirely. There is nothing "just" or "unjust" or, for that matter, fateful, about evolution so that question can be dismissed.
We, as humans have something to do with selection and there may be some debate about what is "natural" or unnatural about fishing blue fin tuna to extinction.

In addition, I would disagree that decisions about protecting or depleting blue fin tuna should be based on what "we want". I love sushi. I could eat it every day. It is something I almost always want. Should I be allowed then to gorge myself until every source is extinct without regard to the environment, other sushi lovers, or our collective progeny?

I think "what we want" is an attitude derived from remorseless capitalism. There is nothing inherently wrong with a capitalistic economy. It takes a collective self deception to ruin it. As long as we have it in our heads that what we want is the ultimate arbiter of all actions, the problem will perpetuate.

ahoy me friends!

i used the term "just", because i've read more than once here on our mighty forums that a species that can't evolve its way into survivability "deserves" its fate...namely, to become extinct.

me question and me phrasin' was deliberate, fer i wished to pose that question fer them who espouse the "evolve or perish" mantra.

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by chrisl

Who cares about 'just'? Isn't the pertinent question rather more selfish - are humans better off with or without bluefin tuna in the ocean?

*muses*

ahoy Chrisl mate!

well, hmm...

regardin' yer question, bluefin tuna consume sardines and mackerel...a key source 'o food fer humans. i suppose one could say that we are competin' with the bluefin tuna fer a limited and finite food source. in 2012 or so, when the bluefin tuna be extinct, thar will be more mackerel and sardines left fer humans.

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by dblack

I tend to agree that that is the pertinent question. But history has shown that radical changes to the ecological balance can produce some pretty nasty unintended consequences, consequences that can matter a great deal to a great many humans. It seems worthwhile to avoid mowing down an entire species of animal if it can be avoided.

*pokes Dblack*

hail Dblack!!!!

ok mate, lets put me first question aside then fer a moment...what of question number 2?

do ye agree that the best way to "manage" the last survivin' bluefin tuna that be left in the ocean would be to just let the free market work its magic?

what say ye, matey?

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

ahoy me friends and hail!

here be me questions;

1) be it reasonable to say that extinction be the just fate fer this species, since it couldn't "evolve" its way into sustainability?

2) be this an example on how our fisheries should be managed? meanin', if the free market "decides" that bluefin tuna shall be extinct, then that be the best way fer these life and death issues should be decided? afterall, an adult bluefin tuna fetches an amazin' $100,000 on the open market and if thar numbers continue to plummet, their worth shall only go up.

- MeadHallPirate

1 - Fishing or hunting a species into extinction is just plain stupid. Most responsible anglers/hunters are among the most conservation minded because they either earn their living or put food on their table because the species continues to exist.

2 - Of course our fisheries shouldn't be managed as if they were simply slaughter houses. Ideally, as prices continue to rise demand will decrease and the species will be able to regenerate as the market shifts to some other food. Will that be what actually happens? I can't say for sure. What I CAN say for sure is that all this talk about tasty fish is making me hungry!

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

do ye agree that the best way to "manage" the last survivin' bluefin tuna that be left in the ocean would be to just let the free market work its magic?

No, i don't think so. Pure free market ethics work better when the trade items in question have clear ownership assigned. The "fruits of the earth" are a kind of communal resource. This gets problematic in international waters, and I don't really have much knowledge of how international law works in that regard, but it seems there is common interest in not raping the earth for a quick buck.

Originally Posted by dblack

No, i don't think so. Pure free market ethics work better when the trade items in question have clear ownership assigned. The "fruits of the earth" are a kind of communal resource. This gets problematic in international waters, and I don't really have much knowledge of how international law works in that regard, but it seems there is common interest in not raping the earth for a quick buck.

aye Dblack, aye,

well, the mighty bluefin tuna travel great distances. they be a kind 'o miracle 'o nature.

...the animal also has attributes that make its evolutionary appearance seem almost deus ex machina, or rather machina ex deo — a machine from God. How else could a fish develop a sextantlike “pineal window” in the top of its head that scientists say enables it to navigate over thousands of miles?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/ma...l?pagewanted=2

they don't reside specifically in anyone's territorial waters, hence, they can only be saved from thar bleak fate by international cooperation.

regardin' yer closin' statement, last year a bluefin tuna, a single fish, fetched $174,000 dollars in a Tokyo fish market.

doesn't it make financial sense to try and kill the remainin' ones to sell'm if yer in desperate need fer coin?

- MeadHallPirate

Not all animals that have become extinct have become extinct at the hands of humans. The question that I have yet to have answered is, 'what negative impact did the ecosystem suffer due to the extinction of dinosaurs.' It is not apparent to me that there was any negative impact. The system adjusted and moved on. The adjustment secondary to the loss of a species, however, may be positive, negative, or neutral as to the effect it has on humans.

I find it ironic that we keep two vials of the deadly smallpox virus in vaults, one in the US and one in Russia, simply because man has never deliberately caused the extinction of an organism, if indeed a virus actually is an organism, while other valuable life forms like this tuna are left to the poachers. The rationale for keeping the virus is that we don't yet know what good it might do for future generations.

Some have been saying for over a century that our current world population is unsustainable. It has only been sustainable thus far because of our technology. But technology can only do so much. In China I saw a thermos on every window sill. Nurses there were obsessive about the drinking water being boiled or distilled because any other is not safe. The life span of the Chinaman has been extended just by boiling drinking water. In our smugness, we look down on that, but the reality is that our drinking water is equally polluted. We use chlorine to make it safe. I know plenty of people who brag about their well water, but I doubt it is safe and I wouldn't drink it.

The environment is already toxic for humans. It is going to follow that the environment is also toxic for other species and they will become extinct whether by the hand of man or from the pollution man creates. With that in mind, I think it is time that man took a stronger stand in favor of trying to preserve every species that is alive today to include the blue fin tuna. It will matter down the road to someone.

I've posted this before, wildlife in this area of KY was practically extinct when I was a girl. It was all eaten off during the depression. We had a neighbor who was almost hospitalized when she claimed to have seen a deer. Now it isn't even safe to drive in the evening there are so many deer. Animal populations CAN rebound, but they have to have the room to do so. I've seen it happen with the deer, squirrel, and rabbit right here in KY.

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

aye Dblack, aye,

well, the mighty bluefin tuna travel great distances...thousands and thousands 'o miles, actually. they don't reside specifically in anyone's territorial waters, hence, they can only be saved from thar bleak fate by international cooperation.

regardin' yer closin' statement, last year a bluefin tuna, a single fish, fetched $174,000 dollars in a Tokyo fish market.

doesn't it make financial sense to try and find the remainin' ones to sell'm if yer in desperate need fer coin?

- MeadHallPirate

Sadly, yes. The incentive is there. I'm in favor of more international cooperation on these kinds of things, and I find it frustrating we have such a poor framework for accomplishing it. I don't think we should fear appropriate levels of world government, and this is exactly the kind of thing such a body should be handling.

Originally Posted by lutherf

1 - Fishing or hunting a species into extinction is just plain stupid. Most responsible anglers/hunters are among the most conservation minded because they either earn their living or put food on their table because the species continues to exist.

hail Lutherf!

aye matey...thar must be a host 'o them responsible anglers out thar.

*puts his lookin' glass to his eye*

wait! i see some now.....ahoyyyYYYYYYY!

As the Bunny Clark is a recreational groundfishing vessel or "party fishing boat", we rarely think about catching the pelagic fish like the sharks, tunas and bill fish. However, after the mackerel come in to shore it seems the bluefin tuna arrive shortly afterward. Technically, the Federal season on bluefin tuna starts on June 1st of every year.

Bunny Clark Deep Sea Fishing

Welcome to NY Fisherman we are going to be the largest on line resource for New York Charter Boats, Party Boats and River Guides.
Charter and party boats fishing out of Captree offer fast access to fishing in the .... and Giant Bluefin Tuna, as well as Mako, Thresher, and Tiger Sharks.

Long Island Fishing Charters And Party Boats

Although yellowfin tuna are scarce, a few bluefin tuna are available, with most fish ... VBSF promotes our licensed charter boat sponsors. ...

Virginia Beach Fishing - Charter Boats, Fishing Reports

Interested in going tuna fishing off of Cape Cod? Let Big Fish Charters take you and your group out on Stellwagen Bank for a day of fishing for some big (and delicious) blue fin tuna

.
Tuna Fishing | Enjoy Catching Tuna Fish Off The Shores Of Massachusetts

matey...me friend! if anglers and sport fisherman be so responsible, why be thar any fishin' 'o bluefin tuna sanctioned at all?

Thanks to 4 decades of overfishing, it (the bluefin tuna) has been driven to just 3% of its 1960 or pre-longlining abundance - a decline of 97% - as shown in ICCAT's figure at left.

http://www.bigmarinefish.com/bluefin.html

- MeadHallPirate

It's not like taking the last slice of bread in the loaf, you won't know you hit the bottom of the barrel until its too late.

Thats why self sustaining breeding populations should be maintained in aquariums the world over to save the species, and efforts to breed and farm them should be funded by selling a limited number of tags for fishermen.