Oh I do believe that you are confused. "Sex" is the physical identifier of a male/female; "gender" is the mental/emotional identifier of sex. This is why a person may be born with one gender but in actual fact be a different gender on the inside. Gender has nothing to do with "right and wrong". Gender has nothing to do with morality. Gender just is. If you have been lucky enough to have been born with the same gender on your inside as the outside, then good for you. Me too. There are others though who have not been as fortunate and have had to endure a life of hardship and largely ridicule from misunderstanding people. Perhaps you could try thinking about the issue from their perspective?

it is you who are confused , you are born the gender you are period , all other bullshit is just that , an excuse, a rationalization to give validity to a lie.

why would I want to try to think in a way which is false and based on a lie?

So science is a lie?

__________________
"Take me back to the way life's never been."

Oh boy:

Some defiitions for you:
Gender (gender - Definitions from Dictionary.com)

(in many languages) a set of classes that together include all nouns, membership in a particular class being shown by the form of the noun itself or by the form or choice of words that modify, replace, or otherwise refer to the noun, as, in English, the choice of he to replace the man, of she to replace the woman, of it to replace the table, of it or she to replace the ship. The number of genders in different languages varies from 2 to more than 20; often the classification correlates in part with sex or animateness. The most familiar sets of genders are of three classes (as masculine, feminine, and neuter in Latin and German) or of two (as common and neuter in Dutch, or masculine and feminine in French and Spanish).

Sex (sex - Definitions from Dictionary.com)
either the male or female division of a species, esp. as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

Sex is the physical identifier; gender is the personal identifier or action of either demonstrating or representing "masculine" vs "feminine".

when we are talking about human beings , you are born the gender you are and that is it .

BS and double talk about ships and cars and other shit is not relevant.

I admit I have some trouble understanding this concept. I mean, when I think of myself, I think ME, gender doesn't come into it. It's only relevant when dealing with others, specifically during mating rituals...Even then, some people are attracted to you, some aren't, whatever their sex or gender may be. My point is, what importance this gender thingy?

Did you finish high school?

__________________
"Take me back to the way life's never been."

I did , I also was a science major , chemistry and physics

no scientific evidence substantiates the assertions made

none in any case which did not originate with homosexual sympathizers and biased researchers.

No, really; I didn't make this up. Sex and gender aren't the same thing; sex denotes the physical characteristics, and gender the social behavior. Obvioulsy social behavior is somewhat fluid.

I never asked you to help me, I asked you how you define natural and unnatural. It helps when having a discussion to define one's terms, and I want to know in what sense you are using them before proceding further.

I also am wondering how you make the logical leap between what is natural and what is right. Many 'natural' things are immoral by most standards; for example, the urge to punch someone who insults you is arguably natural, but generally considered wrong to succumb to. I would recommend caution in both determining what is and isn't natural (nature is far more varied than most poeple think), and in assigning value to something based on it being natural or unnatural.

Well, you said you didn't want your tax money spent on it. How else would this use your tax money?

__________________
"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

But probably you identify as one gender or the other? And if you do, then this colours your behavior and responses to other people (and even if you don't, the gender you're 'read' as by other people colours their reactions to you). It's easy to be unaware of it; it's as ubiquitous and as invisible in our society as air, and often not examined.

Lately I'm somewhat fascinated by gender, and the effect that it has on our relationships. Probaly has someting to do with my longest term friend and lover (and 1st girlfriend) having transitioned to male recently.

__________________
"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

Look, here is the WHO (world health organization) page:
WHO | What do we mean by "sex" and "gender"?

Really, we aren't making this up. Terminolgy is important if we're going to discuss this inteligently.

__________________
"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

Well, I am aware of it, but that wasn't really my point. My point was, it has little relevance in my life. How would my relation to other people change if they (and myself) perceived me as a female? My behavior would be different, somewhat, but not all that different, I imagine.

So. Any pertinent change in that relationship? Pertinent to my question, I mean.

How would it be different if people read you as female? I can relate some of the differences I hear from my friend, now that he's read as male. He now sometimes gets a response of fear, if he's walking at night and encounters a woman; she'll quicken her pace, or move away, which never happened before. Likewise, mothers may respond similarly if he smiles at their kid (which also didn't happen before). However, he isn't interrupted in meetings nearly as often, and gets to finish sentances now. Possibly if you were read as female, you'd notice that you were interrupted or talked over much more often, and that other women don't react with suspicion and fear if you encounter them on a street at night.

QUOTE]

Well...yes, but being so close to it, it's hard for me to tell what is really gender-driven, and what is not. Plus, he was *always* masculine in his outlook, and I realted to him that way. In other words, while most people read him as female prior to transition, I really didn't. Some things *did* change; he definately grew a backbone, and stands up for himself more often. Whether that is truly a gender difference or is a side effect of the degree of introspection and determination it takes to transition I can't say. He also is more outspoken and even occasionally agressive in dealing with people in general, and says that *that* is an effect of testosterone; like when this jerk was banging on the glass of the otter enclosure at the aquarium (the otters were sleeping) and while I was just silently seething, and hoping he'd get bored and go away, C actually said "hey, the sign says don't bang on the glass, how'd you like it if you were trying to nap?"

__________________
"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

Tax money to "pay" for homosexuals to get married? Screw that. In fact, screw tax incentives for marriage of any sort.

I'm single and I have no children that I'm aware of. I find it just as irritating that my tax dollars pay for heterosexual couples to get married and have children (in the form of tax breaks for people who make that choice) as I would for homosexual couples. The "sanctity" of marriage is a load of crap - it's an institution based on property and inheritance rights and is thus more of a business contract than anything "sacred". And, even in its comparatively modern incarnation in the US (social engineering and ostensibly love), there's nothing "sacred" about an institution where you can tie one on and marry a stranger.

Let homosexuals get married if they want. I don't care what you call it - just stop giving it tax considerations, regardless of the gender of the parties entering the contract.

__________________
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

If you haven't yet figured this out, let me fill you in.

You're wasting your time.

You will continue receiving horseshit responses coupled with insults framed as questions Did you finish high school? etc etc etc.

The legalization of marriage is so important to homosexuals because in their mind legal means moral. We live in a society where God and his standards have been removed. If you don't go to Gods word for the standards of right and wrong, good or evil, where do you go ? You go to the Law for all standards. So if the law says it's legal then you're OK. You're no longer wrong. Even if your own conscience condemns you, it doesn't matter because the law says you're legitimately married and all is well.


That the difference between a male and a female

or a male and a male

or a female and a female


is as clear and obvious as the difference between a cube and a sphere


or a sphere and a sphere

or a cube and a cube.

This is something they want everyone to ignore and forget. They think by calling these "couplings" the same thing that it will MAKE it the same thing and legitimize it.

In the early stages of any campaign to reach straight America, the masses should not be shocked and repelled by premature exposure to homosexual behaviour itself. Instead, the imagery of sex should be downplayed and gay rights should be reduced to an abstract social question as much as possible. First let the camel get his nose inside the tent - only later his unsightly derriere ! [ Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill, The Overhauling of Straight America, Guide Magazine, 1987 ]

It's nasty, dangerous behaviour and no amount of sophistic manipulation will make it anything BUT nasty, dangerous behaviour.

No amount of false "science" will do so either.

The cornerstone of the homosexual agenda is the myth that "gays are born that way. They can't help it. They are only living out who they really are." We can't solve the problem of same-sex marriages unless we address this falsehood that lies as a root cause of their movement.

"Virtually all of the evidence argues against there being a determinative physiological causal factor, and I know of no researcher who believes that such a determinative factor exists." [ Steven Goldberg, When Wish Replaces Thought: Why So Much of What you Believe is False (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1992), quoted in NARTH Bulletin, Volume 2, Number 3, Dec. 1994, 5 ]

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Peace apart from God is really a movement away from reality and toward illusion and death.