I thought Pram was gonna make that point, not you. But it works better you making it asi can answer two points at one go. You said folk have elevated NYC's position as just a city because of the attacks but long before then the city had been dealing with terrorism all the way from Abdul Rahman to Ramsay Bin El Sheik trying to destroy the city. There were plots being hatched all the way through the 90's with muslim terrorists having managed to infiltrate the Bronx Mosque where that nutjob blind cleric (i can't remember his name) orchestrated the attacks, this all while Giuliani tried to close the mosque down. He has done more to fight terror in his time at the DoJ and mayor of NYC than Clinton ever did as President imo.

I'm so jaded i can't see it? I sometimes get the same feeling when liberals talk about the GOP never being able to win the next election.

I tell you what, let's leave this Rudy/Hillary issue for now (not exactly on topic just about the 2 of them) and revisit the issue if and when they win the nomination? Maybe we'll have clearer pictures of who can win what.

That's a great idea.

See, we can agree on stuff!

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"Take me back to the way life's never been."

Yup, and heck i wouldn't want all this to be for nothing if one or both of them don't get the nomination.

Now, that'd be funny.

I think Edwards is going to be one to watch. He and his wife are making some interesting moves.

Now, back to the topic of how out of touch Texas is from reality....

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"Take me back to the way life's never been."

I thought it was about Iowa being out of touch with America?

But i very much agree that Edwards is the man to watch, the other 2 dems have everything to lose and Richardson is the only other one who might come in close.

There's only 10 people in Iowa. Let them be.

Texas? Shit. Let's give it back to Mexico.

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"Take me back to the way life's never been."

well perhaps you figured wrong....if you can't think of or understand any reason other bias , regards those that feel gay "marriage" is turning a formal excersize into something aside from its traditional charter than what can I say...

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile....

See then the thing they need is to increase the population! kind of difficult though if they all go around marrying the same sex...

Nah let's make Mexico a part of Texas. Still our laws, a part of America (Still have Mexicans running round everywhere) but just shitloads more land, and loads more oil!!! And all the Mexican waters too of course...the filth that they are, but again, more land and more oil!

Some of the Mexican waters are nice. Dove Cozumel a few years ago, and it was gorgeous!

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"Take me back to the way life's never been."

So anyone who disagrees with you is labeled, ridiculed, caricatured and stuffed into a box - because there is "no other way" to think? Incredible.

Any opinion that differs from yours must automatically be a cover for "fear" and "hatred"? Again, incredible.

There are people who think differently than you do. This is a predominantly left-wing forum and you are not going to encounter many people here who will disagree with you. But that is still no excuse. Open your mind.

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"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

I've been around gay people my entire life. I have an uncle who is gay and a cousin who is gay and they are a couple of my favorite people. My uncle had a hand in my raising (no, he didn't molest me or try to convert me) and he had asked me a few years back to go to a gay pride parade with him, but he ended up moving before any plans could be made. Other then these two family members, my family has always had gay friends. To me, being gay has never been seen as being a negative - sure it's different, but hell, aren't we all. Out of all my cousins, I'm the only one with brown eyes, luckily they haven't stoned me for being different or even required me to go get colored contacts.

If I were to ever get married again, I would want just a civil service. Does that mean I have a civil union? What exactly is the difference between civil union and marriage? IMO, it's just a word.

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Yes what can you say? The marriage laws have changed in the past. The marriage laws will probably change in the future. The mere existence of a current usage is not an a priori argument for resisting change.

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The most important political office is that of private citizen.
Louis D. Brandeis - First Jewish Supreme Court Justice

Having brown eyes doesn't change anything on a marriage license, if we let gays marry why not just let anything go? The sanctity of marriage is gone, so let's just let children marry and let folk have more than one marriage, hcecklet's just let man and dog marry shall we? This will go beyond a slippery slope...children being brought up by 2 people of the same sex, then possibly by more than 2 people, the church will want nothing to do with it, neither will any religious organisation for that matter and it'll lead to a lot of angry people. You having brown eyes (i undertand your point on being different) is not comprable to gay marriage.

The service doesn't mtter, you'd still be signing to a certificate of marriage, unless you choose not to, which would be the difference.

Personally I don't think that the government should be in the business to grant a license to people that want to do something based on either tradition, religion, or way to show love to anybody straight or gay. However, I don't think worries about political strategy should keep people from fighting for equality.

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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"