Tree.....

I read your post shortly after you posted, but I was unsure of how to respond to it. IMHO, you have a fundamental misconception about the BOR. It was written by many, and ratified by many more who agreed with its concept.

As I said before, IT DOESN'T MATTER what you (and I, for that matter), think about the origins of the rights expressed in this document. If you disagree with the concept of inalienable rights, you should take it up with those who wrote and ratified the Constitution.

Among those men, I'm sure you'll find some that subscribe to the "God given" concept. A few of them differ, in that they believed in the "natural rights" reasoning. I wouldn't doubt there are other opinions, as well. BUT....The one thing that unified them in the cause, is they agreed that certain rights exist outside of the influence of other men.

When you say that the origins of rights are extremely important.....well yes....to YOU it is. Since I'm in agreement with the BOR, it doesn't matter what my personal philosophy on the origins of these rights are.....all that matters is that I agree. This is why the direction you are taking in your discourse, leads me to believe you have an underlying motive.....and that motive isn't based on agreement with the concept of certain inalienable rights outlined in the constitution.

Seeing as how this particular thread has to do with gun bans, I have no alternative than to presume you have a problem with the 2nd amendment.

Ok, for the sake of argument, let's specifically discuss RKBA....and even though I'm a religious man, we'll leave religion out of the discussion. Let's take it all the way back to primitive man....Ala "cave man". Now, Let's say you and I are in the same tribe of Neanderthals.....and I'm going to club your brains out because I didn't like you taking more mammoth meat that I have....and I want yours! Now, do you have the right to protect yourself against me by using your own club? Do you have the right to have a club at all, since I'm one of the chiefs, and I say you can't have a club unless the council of chiefs approve of it? It is the law of our tribe, you know. Do I have the right to punish you because you had a club, when the council expressly forbade it?

Let's take another example. We are both in the same tribe of Neanderthals, and our mutual enemy, the Cro Magnons have just attacked us. Somehow, I manage to kill several Cro Magnons and survive the attack, but you don't. You died because you couldn't defend yourself. The council of chiefs decided you weren't one of the ruling elite and aren't even invited to smoke the pipe with us, so you can't have a club. Was the council wrong for taking your club?

A third example might be that since Og, your cousin, stole coral beads from Hetta the shoemaker, your father can't have a club either! .....and since you all are from the disadvantaged "gatherers" clan, nobody who makes a living gathering berries and roots can have a club either.

(BTW: Hetta reneged on a gambling debt, but Og can't prove that!)

I can make examples of these three scenarios that can apply to our modern times.

hogtherapy

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