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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2007
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doniston doniston is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

It is just catching up to us from the rest of the world. (that in some ways, WE have exported to them by our actions.)
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2007
Captain Trips Captain Trips is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Interesting to note that this latest mass shooting was carried out by a Bosnian Muslim.

deseretnews.com | Police identify gunman as 18-year-old Bosnian

We'll continue seeing rampaging Muslims folks.

Yeah, we need better gun control laws. So all the law abiding citizens will be unarmed and harmless when another Muslim decides to kill as many "infidels" as possible on the way to see Allah.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2007
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane View Post
Interesting to note that this latest mass shooting was carried out by a Bosnian Muslim.

deseretnews.com | Police identify gunman as 18-year-old Bosnian

We'll continue seeing rampaging Muslims folks.

Yeah, we need better gun control laws. So all the law abiding citizens will be unarmed and harmless when another Muslim decides to kill as many "infidels" as possible on the way to see Allah.
It's no surprise that a muslim extremist felt right at home in Utah.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2007
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Speedyer Speedyer is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gem View Post
I personally feel that is a large part of the problem, Sam. Violent video games don't teach our kids how to reason, how to be patient or how to forgive. They don't teach kids how to negotiate, how to compromise or how to deal with defeat. All they seem to offer is violence as the only way of dealing with conflicts or disappointments. Couple that with the national mindset of "might makes right", that it is only 'winning" that is important, that everyone one that is 'different" from you is a potential enemy and on ad nauseum and you get real close to the perfect prescription for creating such violent behavior.

Gem
Oh please, parents should decide when their children are capable of understanding the difference between reality and fantasy long before they pick up a controller. Parents are the most single influence on children's behavior, its well documented and proven and we should stop blaming any invention that we created exclusively. I'll admit that TV & video games /can/ warp your sense of reality and comprehension, but not before some parent allows a 5 year old to watch the Simpsons. Besides, video games are just now getting to the point that movies and the news have been at for years, the only difference being that instead of watching you get to interact in such worlds as Gears of Wars. Its even very simple, most of these games are rated appropriately like those movies, and who turns out to buy them the game for Christmas?

Last edited by Speedyer; 02-14-2007 at 06:09 PM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2007
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Mark_Twain Mark_Twain is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

The difference between the U.S. & Canada goes right back to our beginnings. Ours is a nation born of violence; Canada is a nation born of paperwork.

I've lived in El Salvador. I assure you, the murder rates in the streets of San Salvador are worse, per capita, than any American city. The main culprits?:

-easy access to weapons
-high levels of poverty
-high levels of unemployment
-a sense of helplessness
-drugs
-gangs (surely you've heard of MS 13)
-glorification of violence (nearly everything on TV in El Salvador is American shows dubbed into Spanish)
-a civil war that displaced 20% of the population for most of the 1980s & some of the early 1990s; these people largely wound up in Los Angeles (but also Houston, San Diego, Washington, DC, etc.) where they learned Americanized-style gang warfare, which they've transplanted back to El Salvador

El Salvador is a nation recently reborn of violence. Managua & Guatemala City see similar problems. Colon in Panama and Bogota & Medellin are also horrible places to live/visit due to the levels of violence. The common problems between all of them:

-easy access to weapons
-lax (or non-existent) weapon laws
-many of the things I've listed above

I don't know that anyone has a ready-made answer. Surely, it is a complex issue. But if one examines different nations & different cultures & look at the underlying themes, a pattern does emerge. In a neophyte sort of fashion, I've attempted to lay out some possible culprits w/o pretending to be right. . .
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2007
ViolaLee ViolaLee is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane View Post
Interesting to note that this latest mass shooting was carried out by a Bosnian Muslim.

deseretnews.com | Police identify gunman as 18-year-old Bosnian

We'll continue seeing rampaging Muslims folks.

Yeah, we need better gun control laws. So all the law abiding citizens will be unarmed and harmless when another Muslim decides to kill as many "infidels" as possible on the way to see Allah.
Your link says he was Bosnian. Do you have a link that says he was Muslim? Or did you just make that up for the fun of it? Your link says nothing about him killing infidels. Do you have a link that says he was killing infidels or is that another one of your fantasies?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2007
gem gem is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Here's an interesting news item that might point to another possible sorce of the violence in this nation.

Quote:
U.S., Britain faulted on child welfare

U.S., Britain faulted on child welfare - Yahoo! News

By DAVID McHUGH, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 55 minutes ago

BERLIN - The United States and Britain ranked at the bottom of a U.N. survey of child welfare in 21 wealthy countries that assessed everything from infant mortality to whether children ate dinner with their parents or were bullied at school.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Netherlands, followed by Sweden, Denmark and Finland, finished at the top of the rankings, while the U.S. was 20th and Britain 21st, according to the report released Wednesday by
UNICEF in Germany.

One of the study's researchers, Jonathan Bradshaw, said children fared worse in the U.S. and Britain — despite high overall levels of national wealth — because of greater economic inequality and poor levels of public support for families.

"What they have in common are very high levels of inequality, very high levels of child poverty, which is also associated with inequality, and in rather different ways poorly developed services to families with children," said Bradshaw, a professor of social policy at the University of York in Britain.

"They don't invest as much in children as continental European countries do," he said, citing the lack of day care services in both countries and poorer health coverage and preventative care for children in the U.S.

United States questioned the comparisons made by the study, while Britain said it failed take into account recent social improvements.

The study also gave the U.S. and Britain low marks for their higher incidences of single-parent families and risky behaviors among children, such as drinking alcohol and sexual activity.

Britain was last and the U.S. second from the bottom in the category focusing on relationships, based on the percentage of children who lived in single-parent homes or with stepparents, as well as the percentage that ate the main meal of the day with their families several times per week. That category also counted the proportion of children who said they had "kind" or "helpful" relationships with other children.

The report's authors cautioned that the focus on single-parent families "may seem unfair and insensitive" and noted that many children do well with one parent.

"But at the statistical level there is evidence to associate growing up in single-parent families with greater risk to well-being — including a greater risk of dropping out of school, of leaving home early, poorer health, low skills and of low pay," the report said.

On average, 80 percent of the children in the countries surveyed live with both parents. There were wide variations, however, from more than 90 percent in Greece and Italy to less than 70 percent in Britain and 60 percent in the U.S., where 16 percent of adolescents lived with stepfamilies.

Bob Reitemeier, chief executive of The Children's Fund charity in Britain, said the UNICEF report also showed that less than half of British children reported good relations with their peers.

"That really jumped off the page," he said, citing concerns about the competitive, ratings-based school environment in Britain and higher reported incidences of bullying and fighting. "The environment for these young people is quite negative."

The study ranked the countries in six categories, based on national statistics: material well-being, health and safety, education, peer and family relationships, behaviors and risks, and young people's own subjective sense of well-being. Both the U.S. and Britain were in the bottom two-thirds of five of the six categories.

The U.S. finished last in the health and safety category, based on infant mortality, vaccinations for childhood diseases, deaths from injuries and accidents before age 19, and whether children reported fighting in the past year or being bullied in the previous two months.

Britain finished at the bottom in behaviors and risks, which considered factors such as the percentage of children who had breakfast, ate fruit regularly, exercised, were overweight, used drugs or alcohol, were sexually active or became pregnant.

Both the U.S. and British governments criticized the report.

Wade Horn, an assistant secretary at the
Department of Health and Human Services, said the study's standard of measuring poverty differed from that of the United States.

A family of four is defined by the U.S. as living in poverty if its combined income is less than $20,650 a year. The poverty threshold used by the report was an income of $35,000 a year for a family of four, he said.

"I think when you try to compare nations in a report like this, you tend to ignore so many other factors specific to those nations that the comparison becomes somewhat meaningless," Horn said.

State Department spokesman Paul Denig was also critical of the report and said his department first learned of the study through the media and was not asked to provide input.

Britain said the report did not take account of recent improvements to education, health and general living standards in the country. Some of the statistics also went back as far as 2001, it said.

In general, northern European countries with strong social welfare systems dominated the upper half of the rankings. Southern European countries, such as Spain, Italy and Portugal, ranked higher in terms of family support and levels of trust with friends and peers.

___

Associated Press Writer Kevin Freking contributed to this report from Washington.

___

On the Net:

http://[URL="www.unicef.org/media/files/ChildPovertyReport.pdf"]www.unicef.org/media/files/ChildPovertyReport.pdf[/url]
So, second from last place in the world, eh? Is this what we get after years of "compassionate conservatism"? I think what is wrong with this country is that we've got our priorities skewed as to what the purpose of life is supposed to be all about. The article stated that problems exist due to single- parent families. If that is a problem then what happens when both parents have to work their butts off and don't have the energy to be real parents to their kids and don't have the time and energy to actually get out and do things with them? Does that mean they live in a 1/4 parent family? Maybe that's another possible source of the violence in this country.

Gem
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007
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MattLarson MattLarson is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tethys View Post
The point is that since semi-automatic weapons were banned after the Port Arthur incident, there has not been a single mass shooting in the decade 1996-2006.
Neither of the firearms the mall shooter had were semi-autos.

Out of curiosity, why do you think a revolver or pump action gun is somehow less dangerous than a semi-auto?

Matt
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007
gem gem is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
Neither of the firearms the mall shooter had were semi-autos.

Out of curiosity, why do you think a revolver or pump action gun is somehow less dangerous than a semi-auto?

Matt
Revolvers and pump action weapons take longer to chamber and fire so they aren't as overwhelming in firepower as a semi or full auto weapon.
Although I agree with and support the right to own and bear arms I do think that right should be limited to weapons that are not considered weapons of war. If that kid in Salt Lake could do what he did without a semi- auto how much carnage do you think he could have done with a semi or full auto weapon?

Gem
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Last edited by gem; 02-15-2007 at 06:58 AM.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007
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MattLarson MattLarson is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Full auto is a red herring. There are very few lawfully owned fully automatic weapons, and not one owned by a civilian has ever been used in a crime.

As far as semi-auto goes, it's not that much faster that a pump or revolver.

In point of fact, the present world-record holder for speed shooting did it with a revolver.

As far as reloads go, a trained shooter with speedloaders can be just as quick as an auto user changing magazines.

Matt
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007
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EricOKC EricOKC is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gem View Post
Revolvers and pump action weapons take longer to chamber and fire so they aren't as overwhelming in firepower as a semi or full auto weapon.
As Matt pointed out, the speed difference is irrelevant, and bringing full-auto into the equation is a red herring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gem View Post
Although I agree with and support the right to own and bear arms I do think that right should be limited to weapons that are not considered weapons of war.
So what you're really saying is, you do NOT support the right to bear arms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gem View Post
If that kid in Salt Lake could do what he did without a semi- auto how much carnage do you think he could have done with a semi or full auto weapon?

Gem
Just as much or less. Yes less. Full auto firearms are rather difficult to aim when shot on full-auto.

Of course, since you want use hypotheticals to justify your position, consider how much LESS damage he would have caused if he wasnt the only one armed.
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Last edited by EricOKC; 02-15-2007 at 09:57 AM.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007
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Mark_Twain Mark_Twain is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Actually, I use a couple of semi-automatics, the SKS being my favorite. When I have the banana clip on, I assure you it fires much faster than any revolver. Of course, I've not spent my life training to be Doc Holliday. . .
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007
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Wallaroo Wallaroo is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpd8488 View Post
It is something that is of serious concern, but worst of all it is a new trend.

There is something fundamentally flawed within our society, but no lawmaker is willing to stand up and say that (granted it is hard to get elected if you insult the public), they would rather pass knee-jerk reactionary legislation to appeal to the voters.

Passing laws won't do a thing because the people who do these sort of things don't care. There is something wrong with our society that brings out a murderous streak in some people.

[b]You don't see this any other country or at any other time in our history.[b]
Yes you do, in Germany for instance.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007
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mpd8488 mpd8488 is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

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Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
Yes you do, in Germany for instance.
Sure it can happen anywhere, but what other nation has these sort of incidents anywhere even approaching the frequency that we do?

It is a given that there will be insane individuals anywhere, but why are there more here?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007
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Wallaroo Wallaroo is offline
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Re: Ho hum, another day, another two mass shootings in the US...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpd8488 View Post
Sure it can happen anywhere, but what other nation has these sort of incidents anywhere even approaching the frequency that we do?

It is a given that there will be insane individuals anywhere, but why are there more here?
There arent, but it spread like rings in the water when it happens and becomes a trend. Obviously the easy access to descent firearms makes it much easier for the psychos.
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