Open or Conceal Carry? - Page 2 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Si modo · #16 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by daddio

if you know that the object of your disaffection may be armed, you'll think twice about demonstrating your feelings.

And what if I was carrying a gun, standing in line with you, you did nothing on your part, yet I perceive that you have cut in line or looked at me impolitely - and I have anger issues?

MattLarson · #17 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Si modo

I like it when the facts of a situation prove a liar.

OK, there are good points being made for conceal-carry. I am still finding it hard to get beyond dealing with some irrational lunatic who has anger issues and pulls a gun on me because they didn't liuke the way I changed a lane or was standing in line to get a Coke.

If concealed carrying is permitted, I would like to see some intense training on responsible use being a requirement for it.

The thing is, the type of irrational person who would threaten you with a firearm for something like that is not going to be deterred from carrying a gun because they do not have a license.

Are there occasions when a CCW holder acts inappropriately? Sure. But I submit that those are the sort of folks who would not have acted any differently absent the license.

Matt

MattLarson · #18 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Here are some of my observations from my personal experiences carrying a firearm, along with items from training classes and articles.

I find that when I am out in public armed, I am even more polite than when I am unarmed (and I am generally a nice guy anyway). I drive more politely, and take less offense at what others do in traffic.

Some people will say that they only go certain places armed. To me, this is a silly concept. If a place is to be avoided while unarmed, it should be even moreso while armed. As one of my instructors once said, there are 3 don't of concealed carry:

Don't go stupid places
Don't do stupid things
Don't hang out with stupid people

Those are good advice for everyone, all the time. But they apply doubly when armed.

There is only one thing in the world I want to avoid more than having to use my firearm in defense of myself or another against an imminent deadly threat, and that is needing to do so, but not being able to because I don't have the tools (aka the gun) available when I need it.

Matt

Si modo · #19 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Here are some of my observations from my personal experiences carrying a firearm, along with items from training classes and articles.

I find that when I am out in public armed, I am even more polite than when I am unarmed (and I am generally a nice guy anyway). I drive more politely, and take less offense at what others do in traffic.

Some people will say that they only go certain places armed. To me, this is a silly concept. If a place is to be avoided while unarmed, it should be even moreso while armed. As one of my instructors once said, there are 3 don't of concealed carry:

Don't go stupid places
Don't do stupid things
Don't hang out with stupid people

Those are good advice for everyone, all the time. But they apply doubly when armed.

There is only one thing in the world I want to avoid more than having to use my firearm in defense of myself or another against an imminent deadly threat, and that is needing to do so, but not being able to because I don't have the tools (aka the gun) available when I need it.

Matt

It seems obvious that you are well-trained. That is fabulous and I like the rules-of-thumb your instructors have given you.

What do you think about making this sort of intense training absolutely necessary for any carrying permit? I would have no issue with folks having this type of training carrying (open or concealed) at all.

I do have issues with folks who have irrational tempers and/or ideas about carrying being armed and among the public. Granted, these folks will tend toward violence regardless of whether they are armed or not. However, they will probably have generally less lethal tools available to them when they vent their issues. If properly trained, they may learn to rein-in that temper when carrying or not even be able to pass the training.

Wallaroo · #20 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Here are some of my observations from my personal experiences carrying a firearm, along with items from training classes and articles.

I find that when I am out in public armed, I am even more polite than when I am unarmed (and I am generally a nice guy anyway). I drive more politely, and take less offense at what others do in traffic.

Some people will say that they only go certain places armed. To me, this is a silly concept. If a place is to be avoided while unarmed, it should be even moreso while armed. As one of my instructors once said, there are 3 don't of concealed carry:

Don't go stupid places
Don't do stupid things
Don't hang out with stupid people

Those are good advice for everyone, all the time. But they apply doubly when armed.

There is only one thing in the world I want to avoid more than having to use my firearm in defense of myself or another against an imminent deadly threat, and that is needing to do so, but not being able to because I don't have the tools (aka the gun) available when I need it.

Matt

Do you think your good principles are shared with most CCW holders?

MattLarson · #21 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallaroo

Do you think your good principles are shared with most CCW holders?

I suspect so. While the sample is statistically insignificant, I'd have to say 90% of the CWFL (what we call it in Florida because it allows carrying things besides guns) I have met holders operate along those lines.

The statistics bear this out. The rate of permit revocations is very low.

Of the active 497,835 CWFLs out there, 390 were revoked in the last 11 months, and 2703 suspended.

Or, roughly 0.6%

Matt

MattLarson · #22 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Si modo

It seems obvious that you are well-trained. That is fabulous and I like the rules-of-thumb your instructors have given you.

What do you think about making this sort of intense training absolutely necessary for any carrying permit? I would have no issue with folks having this type of training carrying (open or concealed) at all.

To be honest, I think the minimum standard in Florida is too low, and I would like to see more of a training requirement.

As it stands now, one can qualify for a CWFL by attending a basic class on Florida law and discharging a firearm on the range with an instructor. There is no requirement that you can actually hit anything - if you can load the gun, fire it in the general direction of downrange, and unload it without hurting yourself, you're done.

I'd like to see more training required - at least the ability to place rounds on a "combat" target at 7 yards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Si modo

I do have issues with folks who have irrational tempers and/or ideas about carrying being armed and among the public. Granted, these folks will tend toward violence regardless of whether they are armed or not. However, they will probably have generally less lethal tools available to them when they vent their issues. If properly trained, they may learn to rein-in that temper when carrying or not even be able to pass the training.

I think, though, that the very very low rates of criminal violations by CCW holders bear out that those sorts are not getting licenses. In my experience, that sort of person has acquired a conviction for battery at some point and is therefore disqualified from holding a CCW in most states.

Matt

Si modo · #23 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

.... and unload it without hurting yourself, you're done....

Well, that settles it; I would not pass.

Seriously, though, I agree that good and thorough training should be required.

The stats of those carrying is impressive so far.

Wallaroo · #24 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

I suspect so. While the sample is statistically insignificant, I'd have to say 90% of the CWFL (what we call it in Florida because it allows carrying things besides guns) I have met holders operate along those lines.

The statistics bear this out. The rate of permit revocations is very low.

Of the active 497,835 CWFLs out there, 390 were revoked in the last 11 months, and 2703 suspended.

Or, roughly 0.6%

Matt

Well, that is low. Are 497,835 the nation number, or only the Florida number?

Have you got any concrete examples on why permits were suspended or revoked?

Mrs. M · #25 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

I suspect so. While the sample is statistically insignificant, I'd have to say 90% of the CWFL (what we call it in Florida because it allows carrying things besides guns) I have met holders operate along those lines.

The statistics bear this out. The rate of permit revocations is very low.

Of the active 497,835 CWFLs out there, 390 were revoked in the last 11 months, and 2703 suspended.

Or, roughly 0.6%

Matt

I really believe that the majority of folks that take the time to legally possess their guns and obtain a permit are law-abiding folks. I think a lot of people want to see gun laws changed in order to decrease crime but it doesn't work that way because the criminal doesn't care about the laws already on the books so why would he care about new ones????

daddio · #26 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Si modo

And what if I was carrying a gun, standing in line with you, you did nothing on your part, yet I perceive that you have cut in line or looked at me impolitely - and I have anger issues?

then you'll have to ask yourself
'is he packing too ?'
'is he faster than I am ?'
'is that guy across from us packing ?'
'is he faster than I am ?'

this is the beauty of concealed carry, its not just that next guy you have to concern yourself with, its everyone.

MattLarson · #27 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallaroo

Well, that is low. Are 497,835 the nation number, or only the Florida number?

Have you got any concrete examples on why permits were suspended or revoked?

That's the Florida number. No real details on why they were revoked / suspended.

A suspension usually means the person has been arrested for something which would disqualify them from having a CWFL. The permit stays suspended until the charge is resolved.

Revocation happens with the person has been convicted of a crime, or adjudicated mentally incompetent to have a CWFL.

Matt

CYDdharta · #28 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Si modo

Seriously, though, I agree that good and thorough training should be required.

I'm a bit leery of making training a requirement for obtaining a CCW. It can be a way to invalidate the whole purpose of passing “shall issue” laws. If legislatures get into the act of deciding who can teach these courses, how often they can be held and how many people can attend each class, they can control how many CCWs will be issued. This is the situation in South Africa, where they hold 2 such classes a year country-wide. I certainly encourage anyone who intends to handle firearms, CCW or not, to receive training prior to doing so, I believe making it a requirement may lead to abuse.

goober · #29 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

The Supreme Court just said a person has a right to possess a licensed loaded firearm, in their house. Outside the house gun control laws are fine.
Do you want people carrying guns into football games?
If you are a bar or club owner, don't you think it's alright to bar weapons from your club?
What about any business owner, should they be able to post a sign saying no weapons allowed inside the premises?
If a warrant is issued for a Concealed weapons permit holder, should the the police add "armed and considered dangerous" to the circular?

CYDdharta · #30 (**permalink**) 06-28-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober

The Supreme Court just said a person has a right to possess a licensed loaded firearm, in their house. Outside the house gun control laws are fine.
Do you want people carrying guns into football games?
If you are a bar or club owner, don't you think it's alright to bar weapons from your club?
What about any business owner, should they be able to post a sign saying no weapons allowed inside the premises?
If a warrant is issued for a Concealed weapons permit holder, should the the police add "armed and considered dangerous" to the circular?

I suppose they could just follow the lead of the 40 of the 50 states that have "shall issue" carry laws. The system seems to be working very well there.

View Poll Results: Open or Conceal Carry?
I do not support any carrying of handguns by the public	3	10.34%
I support open carrying	1	3.45%
I support concealed carrying	4	13.79%
I support both - it is the choice of the carrier	19	65.52%
I don't know or have another idea	2	6.90%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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