Originally Posted by TSGracchus

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that the government can't ban guns altogether, I believe we can remove the word "outlaw" from our discussions along these lines. Right? Nobody's talking about "outlawing" guns (or sleeping pills, etc.). That would be unconstitutional. Well, maybe not the sleeping pills . . . Anyway, there's been enough paranoid knee-jerking from the gun culture on the subject of "outlawing" guns, which was never going to happen because the political will didn't exist, but now that we know for sure that's not going to happen perhaps we can achieve a greater degree of rationality. You think?

The question is not one of law but one of wisdom. Is it a good idea to keep a gun in your house? Sure, you've got a legal right to do it; you've got a legal right to stay drunk all the time, too, but that doesn't make it smart.

The ease with which a gun can be used to kill oneself, or to kill a family member if one is messed up or really pissed off, argues against it being a good idea. A man can have a perfect grasp of gun safety procedures and be in very little danger of killing anyone accidentally, but then he finds out his wife is cheating on him with his best friend. What does he do?

Hopefully, he either works it out and forgives her or he divorces her peacefully. But even someone who ultimately does that is going to feel, at least briefly, the powerful desire to kill her -- or her lover -- or himself -- or all three. The great majority of homicides are of this nature, not involving professional criminals at all.

Say he decides to off the bitch. He'll regret it later, and given time to think he'll change his mind. He's not a monster. But right now, he wants her dead. There are lots of ways he could do it. He could do it with a kitchen knife, or a baseball bat, or a hammer, or even his bare hands. Or, if he has one, he could do it with a gun.

Let's say he doesn't have a gun. The decision is made to kill his wife. He goes into the kitchen, pulls out a big butcher knife, and goes after her. She sees him coming. She runs for the door. Does she make it, or does he plunge that knife into her back before she can get out? Seeing her running for the door, does he stick with his anger long enough to stab her to death before she makes it out, or do second thoughts prompt him to hesitate, letting her go? Uncertain. Could go either way.

If he has a gun, though, he's more likely to pull that, click off the safety, and go after her. Less likely she'll make it to the door. Less chance he'll have second thoughts as she runs, because it's quicker and easier to pull a trigger than it is to stab someone. That's why a gun is better than a knife for home defense, and the same reason applies to murder.

Remember, now, the court has spoken, so nobody's talking about taking anyone's legal right to own firearms away. The only question here is this: given that you have the right to have a gun, is it really a good idea? I was married for ten years to a violent woman, someone who regularly tried to beat me up. Mostly we're just talking punches and kicks, but on a couple of instances she picked up something handy and threw it at me.

We never had a gun in the house. I am alive to write this message, and she is out of prison, for that reason. I'm quite certain of it.

Originally Posted by Angry American

Yea, early morning post syndrome, the more I look at the data, the less sense my post makes.

Originally Posted by Captain Trips

We should make guns illegal because people kill themselves with them.

We should make knives illegal. All drugs illegal. Of course cigarettes illegal.

Cars, ropes longer than 2 feet. Sheets. Razor blades. Xacto knives and blades. Glass of all kinds.

Hell, we need to put everybody in rubber rooms so they don't hurt themselves.

Protect us from ourselves.

Dumb dangerous fuckers.

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Don't forget detergent. The newest craze sweeping Japan.

Matt

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

You are consistently on the prohibition side of drug debates on this forum...

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Don't forget detergent. The newest craze sweeping Japan.

Matt

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

There are going to be situations in which having a gun saves a person's life or protects his/her property. There are going to be situations in which it endangers the lives of their owners or their owners' family and friends. Statistically, the latter are much more numerous.

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

I know that, and for that reason I do not plan ever to own and keep a firearm around the house. I have no irrational fear of guns; I grew up in Texas and used to go target shooting all the time. And yet I can still remember the time when a friend of mine who was over visiting took my dad's revolver out and, assuming it was unloaded, pointed it at my sister and pulled the trigger . . .

Luckily, he was right, it wasn't loaded. But you know as well as I do that you NEVER make that assumption.

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

Kids, though, kids are irresponsible, it's part of being a kid. I look back on that memory and shudder at what could have happened, if my father had forgotten to unload the gun before putting it away.

I could see having a gun if I was in a high-risk situation for one reason or another, where the risk of having something happen where I would need the gun outweighed the danger of having the gun itself. But I don't expect ever to be in that sort of situation.

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

My ex-wife isn't a lunatic. She's just a volatile person with an anger-management problem. And she was more in love with me than I was with her, and she knew it and it bothered her. Even people without anger management problems can behave irrationally when severely stressed. Even you, Mrs. M. I'm glad you don't live with a violent person (trust me, it's NOT fun), and I know you're a widow, and I don't know if you're currently living with a lover. But imagine that you are, and that this guy not only cheats on you but brings home an STD and infects you with it, and you find this out on a phone call from your doctor, who also reveals that it's her own underage daughter that the creep fooled around with -- together with that underage daughter's sleazy boyfriend, who was probably the one carrying the bug. AND while you're having this discussion you look in your purse and discover that $500 cash and a couple of credit cards are missing . . . (Heh -- I'm going to have to put some scenario like that into my next novel, I think.)

There are going to be situations in which having a gun saves a person's life or protects his/her property. There are going to be situations in which it endangers the lives of their owners or their owners' family and friends. Statistically, the latter are much more numerous. I know that, and for that reason I do not plan ever to own and keep a firearm around the house. I have no irrational fear of guns; I grew up in Texas and used to go target shooting all the time. And yet I can still remember the time when a friend of mine who was over visiting took my dad's revolver out and, assuming it was unloaded, pointed it at my sister and pulled the trigger . . .

Luckily, he was right, it wasn't loaded. But you know as well as I do that you NEVER make that assumption. Kids, though, kids are irresponsible, it's part of being a kid. I look back on that memory and shudder at what could have happened, if my father had forgotten to unload the gun before putting it away.

I could see having a gun if I was in a high-risk situation for one reason or another, where the risk of having something happen where I would need the gun outweighed the danger of having the gun itself. But I don't expect ever to be in that sort of situation.

Originally Posted by Jason Marcel

But the gun crimes aren't out of self defense usually, and are mostly intended for other people.

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

My ex-wife isn't a lunatic. She's just a volatile person with an anger-management problem. And she was more in love with me than I was with her, and she knew it and it bothered her. Even people without anger management problems can behave irrationally when severely stressed. Even you, Mrs. M. I'm glad you don't live with a violent person (trust me, it's NOT fun), and I know you're a widow, and I don't know if you're currently living with a lover. But imagine that you are, and that this guy not only cheats on you but brings home an STD and infects you with it, and you find this out on a phone call from your doctor, who also reveals that it's her own underage daughter that the creep fooled around with -- together with that underage daughter's sleazy boyfriend, who was probably the one carrying the bug. AND while you're having this discussion you look in your purse and discover that $500 cash and a couple of credit cards are missing . . . (Heh -- I'm going to have to put some scenario like that into my next novel, I think.)

There are going to be situations in which having a gun saves a person's life or protects his/her property. There are going to be situations in which it endangers the lives of their owners or their owners' family and friends. Statistically, the latter are much more numerous. I know that, and for that reason I do not plan ever to own and keep a firearm around the house. I have no irrational fear of guns; I grew up in Texas and used to go target shooting all the time. And yet I can still remember the time when a friend of mine who was over visiting took my dad's revolver out and, assuming it was unloaded, pointed it at my sister and pulled the trigger . . .

Luckily, he was right, it wasn't loaded. But you know as well as I do that you NEVER make that assumption. Kids, though, kids are irresponsible, it's part of being a kid. I look back on that memory and shudder at what could have happened, if my father had forgotten to unload the gun before putting it away.

I could see having a gun if I was in a high-risk situation for one reason or another, where the risk of having something happen where I would need the gun outweighed the danger of having the gun itself. But I don't expect ever to be in that sort of situation.

Originally Posted by MattLarson

According to the OP's stats above, this is absolutely not true.

Originally Posted by TSGracchus

The question is whether it poses a greater risk than not having one. My believe is that it does. One could try to argue to the contrary, but to suggest, as you do here, that the risk of having a gun is literally zero, is ridiculous.