All I know is I've been around both,and I've never seen anyone start a fight because they were stoned.Drunk thats a another story altogether.If drinking is legal than so should pot be.

Even if that’s true, good wasn’t a qualifier in the OP lol

Really? How do you figure?

Now wait, you think a drug dealer is just a happy fat cat well adjusted healthy person with no problems?

I’d say alcohol severely dumbs our society down. I’m not saying that people overall in general aren’t pretty dumb to begin with, but alcohol defiantly takes us down several pegs. Think how many societal problems are based in alcohol and drug abuse. I’m just saying in general I know lots of people who never got into pot solely because its illegal, and plenty of them were dumb enough without it. Once again, just saying that it makes our society worse, that’s all.

How about the targeting of kids by big tobacco? how about all the health issues that are stressing an already straining health care system?
Lol really? I mean its one thing for a college kid, but you do realize that there is plenty of predatory pushing right? And you realize that kids are very susceptible to those pressures right? And that it is addictive and if someone can make a profit off of that addiction they will right? Not saying there’s not enough blame to go around to parents and others as well, but pretty fair share belongs on pushers.

Nope I said even if its not a good reason, or at least one that’s not outweighed by the cons, it is defiantly a reason, all those things make society worse, and don’t do any good. Weed is a little worse than potato chips, (though maybe not video games) but there you go

Did I say that?...

Etbauer: The good argument is that it is harmful, certainly to the individual, in that it causes several neurological problems, and because its effects tend to decrease dramatically over time giving good argument to the ‘gateway drug’ label

It was a qualifier you assigned to it.Unless your kids are still tied to you with an umbilical cord, I think you're safe.No, rather that more money is generally good, for both rich and poor people.So, you would say that our society was better during Prohibition?I don't consider targeting of kids to be a particularly big problem. They still have a choice to buy or not to buy. Health care is problematic because of all of the ridiculous requirements needed to be a doctor.If they lie about the product, and the sale is made under assumption of those lies, then yes, they are responsible. But that would be the case if they were dealing to adults, too. It's also not inherently present in drug dealing anymore than it is present in used car dealing, for instance.The purpose here is to come up with a GOOD reason. Here's a reason not to legalize weed: a truck transporting the weed legally might run me over. It's a ridiculous reason, but a reason nonetheless. No, we're not looking for those.A guy compared cubicle life to farming+weed. You said: "First off I agree, a cubicle is a terrible fate, but its self chosen"

BUT it's self chosen? As opposed to what?

Ok, fair enough on that one, and I do think it’s a good one. I would submit that a product being very bad for someone is a good reason not to allow it to be sold. How about heroin? Do you feel that we should legalize that too? I realize there is a big difference, but you can make the same arguments.

Well, I guess at some point you kind of have to look at what your standard of healthy is, and I suppose that can be skewed across society, but a person who is hooked on pot isn’t going to be a much better parent than an alcoholic.

Ok… not exactly, but anyway, the point is that by supporting the illegal market, you are hurting that person not helping them just because you are giving them money.

Well, I wasn’t there, but if it wasn’t then it was because of the crime associated with alcohol and the illegal sale of it. It was the criminals selling the alcohol, buoyed and sponsored by the people who bought it that caused the problems, not the lack of alcohol. If alcohol could have been eliminated completely, then it would have been a much better world, and it would be now too.

Allright, if you say so

Lol you completely lost me on this one.

Well, a used car probably isn’t going to ruin a life as badly. And there is more to pressure than just lying, at least when we are talking about kids, and kids is what we were talking about. I say at that point its a whole different ball game, and again the reasons were much better than the truck example, and you know it.

As opposed to a being forced on him… what the hell is your point with this part??

Yes, we should. Do you think it's a good idea to ban fast food? It's bad for you. Salt?Even though I kind of doubt that, the kid has no guarantee to being taken care of by the parent. If they don't like it, they can leave or go to a foster home.First of all, the illegal market is support first and foremost by the government, since it is the government spending millions of dollars keeping legitimate manufacturers out of the business, whereas the buyer only spends a few of his dollars to buy the stuff. Second, more money is still better than less money. Nobody is forcing the drug dealer to deal drugs. It's a business choice.So, would you care to argue within the realm of reality? You do understand that drug Prohibition was a failure then and a failure now? And that it only helped gangsters then and is helping them now? Good. In other words, no, it doesn't make society better. It just breeds crime.Can you legally practice medicine without a medical degree, even if you tell your patients that you do not have one?You weren't interested in quality up until recently, and from a number of posts ago. You first said your example was good, then that it didn't matter if it was good, and now you say it is better. Make up your mind.

You don't think being out $20,000 grand is a setback? And that's from one mistake. I kind of doubt that you're going to ruin your life from one hit. I prefer one hit of a drug vs being $20,000 in the hole. Actually, I prefer that to being out $1,000.You implied it was better because it's self-chosen. Well, as opposed to what?

I object to excessive use of Statism for political purposes. We have a written Constitution for a reason. One of those reason's is enumerated in our Ninth Amendment. Individual liberty is the underlying concept of our form of statism.

Simply resorting to more police-state functionality only increases our tax burden and engenders a nanny-state mentality on what should be a more, not less, well informed electorate.

I think the negative effects of fast food are a good reason to ban it and if we could make it disappear, we would probably live in a better world, that makes it a good reason. It’s a good reason however that is outweighed by the cons of that ban. You didn’t answer me about heroin. Where do you draw the line, I think that since pot is roughly on the same plane as alcohol and alcohol is legal, it probably shouldn’t be banned. Heroin or speed is worse, and should be banned.

Wow, look kids aren’t capable of making those kinds of descisions, that’s why they have parents. However, the possibility exists that even you might be a parent (dear god I hope not… please please tell me you aren’t) and that shows that as a society, we can’t count on parents to do their job, that’s why age laws are in effect, and its illeagal to market things like tobacco and alcohol to minors (by the way, they would do so intensly if it wasn’t illegal)

Well, now we are getting into crazy paranoia which is another side effect of weed, and one that adds another good reason to get rid of it. But more to the point, if the government put all its resources into creating the drug trade, it still wouldn’t exist without consumers. Consumers are the only reason a market exists, and therefore are primarily responsible for a drug lord terrorizing a Columbian farmer. That’s a good reason to try to stop the consumers. And by the way, if I drive a lifted hummer that gets 2 miles to the gallon, I am contributing an immeasurably small portion of the air pollution problem, yet I'm still the root cause.

Allright, you can keep up with me I know you can, just a little more effort, and we will be there. The original argument here was that pot makes a society worse overall, as does alcohol. We weren’t discussing the negative effects and effectiveness of enforcing a ban on drugs. Only whether society would be better or worse if we could eliminate them altogether.

Wow, ok, look if you really think it’s a good idea to let unlicensed doctors practice medicine, then well, were in the relm of what I call the Goofy argument. If someone tells you they are convinced they met the real life Goofy at Disneyland, then well you cant argue.

Ok, Ive addressed that above

Truth be told I was in a hurry to get out on that last post. And no one hit of pot isn’t going to ruin your life, an addiction will, and a lot more so than 20g. More importantly, again we were talking about kids who are in a different category.

Still lost I said it sucks to live life in a cubicle. But he can’t blame anyone else but himself for that. As an adult, you are free to make those choices, especially in this society, and the overall effect of him working in a cubicle is generally that as a society our life is better. So what else would I mean? What is the opposite of self-chosen? Are there many answers to that….

Yes, I did answer you about heroin: Yes, we should.

And no, the "if we could make it disappear" part does not make it a "good reason." It makes it a "pipe dream."Once again, kids don't have any guarantee of being taken care of.No, it wouldn't exist without customers. But customers will always be there. The government is the one going out of its way to shift production to gangsters.Actually, that is a very important component of the drug ban debate. In any case, I could easily argue that people would have less fun without drugs, or that they would simply replace the fun of drugs with the fun of getting high on cement, for instance. They already made meth as a result of the war on drugs.So, if a person's choice is surgery or death, and he has no money for an expensive med school surgeon, he should just die instead of taking his chances with one who didn't go to med school but has just as much experience in the field?Oh yes, we all know that ALL kids get addicted for life from one hit of pot. That's why, since almost 50% of kids have tried pot by 12th grade, that almost 50% of the population is hopelessly addicted to it. The opposite of self-chosen is chosen by someone else or at least not yourself. Drugs are also self-chosen.

Etbauer:

Just so crazy Slon isn't the only one responding to you, I'll chip in.

Precisely the same argument applies to trying to ban drugs. (Including heroin.) And I would disagree with you on a fundamental point of logic: if the reason is outweighed by the cons, then it's NOT a good reason.

The equation "A is bad" with "A should be outlawed" is a false equation. Always when you pass a law outlawing something, there are harmful effects of the law. When what you are trying to ban is an item of commerce with a large consumer base, the harmful effects are huge. A black market automatically arises, and increases the incidence of other crimes, crimes of violence, theft, and fraud, not just crimes defined by the statute. The law results in people being killed and property being stolen, on a large scale, as well as law enforcement and politicians being corrupted by bribes from black marketeers. So in order to provide a good reason for a drug to be outlawed, it's not enough to show that the drug is "bad for you" in some way. What you must show is that it is SO bad, that the increased use of it from having it legal compared to having it outlawed, will produce bad effects that outweigh a terrible epidemic of crime and corruption. Frankly, I can't think of a single controlled substance for which that statement is true. Not heroin, not cocaine, not methamphetamine -- and certainly not marijuana.

Marijuana may not be entirely free of bad effects. It may not be entirely innocuous. But it is not as bad as an epidemic of murder, robbery, theft, and corruption. As such, there can be no good reason to outlaw it.

oops reposted something that i didnt know had posted

No, when I have bought pot from people it wasn't to support a criminal way of life (actually, most of the people I ever bought any drugs from had full-time jobs and were really nice people). The "gangstas" are higher up the drug chain than I ever got (except for one guy that made it on America's Most Wanted but that's a whole different story, and he was actually a really nice guy too).

I would love it if it were legal so we could transfer funds from a non-tax paying sector of society and create a system where honest people could earn a buck from the profits while decreasing the tax burden of citizens that pay for a costly war on drugs that's unwinnable. We could even convert some of these "criminals" (most of the violence stems from the law not protecting their financial interests than a will to do violence) into productive members of society.

Pot is not that dangerous, not that addictive, and not that big of a deal.

I can't say definitively that it doesn't cause neurological disorders, but I can say that every successful person I know has done or still does smoke pot on occasion. The "Gateway drug" label is really misleading propaganda. Most drink coffee and alcohol before trying pot, are they "gateway" drugs.....the whole "gateway" drug theory is pure government created anti cannabis propaganda.
If you have kids it does change things dramatically. It is the best reason to fight that much harder against any and every injustice. Not just the drug war.
You mention buying from a drug dealer as "enabling" him which brings up another point...Once the "war on drugs" ends, there's going to be an awful lot of less then scrupulous folks (drug dealers) running around out of a job...not a deal breaker, just one of the un-pleasantries of legalization.
As far as selling to kids, I think we have to treat it like someone giving kids alcohol.....we fine the shit out of them....we don't send them to prison.

You say that all the affects of pot are bad. Your forgetting that over 40% of our prison population were imprisoned because of pot related charges. It is the demonizing of Cannabis that led us down this road, not the cannabis itself. A lot of good could come from the money wasted on Cannabis prohibition. Is that not a great reason to legalize it? Tens of thousands of non violent people every year would be saved from the hell of our judicial/incarceration system. We are broke....We need to focus on our real problems....Cannabis simply is not one of them.

My God that was well said.

I second that motion.

Ok, I think we have reached the circular point a while ago, let me paraphrase a piece of this debate.

Me: The existence of pot makes society worse, as does alcohol.
Slon: So life was better during the prohibition?
Me: If it wasn’t then it wasn’t due to the lack of alcohol, it was due to the criminal activity.
Slon: So in other words prohibition doesn’t work
Me: The point was that forgetting for now what the effects of prohibition are, the overall effect of alcohol and drugs is that society is worse.
Slon: That’s not realistic cause prohibition doesn’t work.
…Theoretical continuation of the argument:
Me: All I was saying was that drugs make a society worse
Slon: Prohibition doesn’t work
… ad infinitum

I realize this forum is a self selecting group of fundamentalists that are unable to think about any viewpoint other than their own and are only here to shout their own as loud as possible, but this OP didn’t ask whether it should be outlawed or not, it just asked for good reasons to outlaw it. I have offered several reasons that (without getting into a huge debate about the definition of ‘good’) show the grey area, that a responsible person should think about when mulling over this debate. If you only think in black and white, then I suppose it’s irrelevant, and in that case I could also say hey, it is illegal, so arguing is pointless, and get over it.

I also don’t know how many times I have to say I think the costs of outlawing weed outweigh the benefits, but there simply are downsides, and I have listed several. Think about it if you want to or close your mind to it. Either way.

Now on the effect of laws, make no mistake, LAWS DO NOT MAKE CRIMINALS. Drugs are not a right, or a need. There is nothing noble or useful about them. IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO SELL AND BUY THAT MAKE THE CRIME. If you buy drugs, YOU are the cause of the crime, not the law. No matter how ridiculous the law may be. If the law was about food or water, or shelter, it’s a different story, even if it was about gasoline. But because its drugs, the consumer is the CAUSE of the crime, no one else.


Laws have many different purposes, but primarily, they exist to protect people who cannot do it otherwise. Kids cannot protect themselves, and enough parents won’t that society has a role in that protection. Barring that protection, kids get hooked before they are capable of making decisions for themselves. That addiction is the cause of most homelessness, most abuse, and therefore most psychological problems. That then effects me as a person who chose not to do those drugs. I now have to pay for their care, I have to worry about their stealing, I have to deal with psychological baggage of girls I date who were neglected and abused by their addicted parents, if I’m a child, I have to deal with the abuse and neglect from my addicted parents. And if I’m in a poor ghetto neighborhood, I have to fight the pressures put on me by peers, pushers, and consumers that have created the market for the substance in my life even though I didn’t choose any of that. Therefore it becomes my business. Therefore laws play a role in protecting me from those effects. And that’s why they are illegal.

I’m tired of saying this and then having it repeated to me, but I realize pot is no worse than alcohol, I know it’s not instantly addictive like heroin, I know alcohol causes all the same effects. I know all that. But the fact remains there is a significant population of pot addicts, and an addict causes all the problems listed above. Granted it’s a small sliver but the consideration is there, you can’t just say there’s no good reason cause there aren’t as many, there are good reasons, and the pot addled mother that cant get out of her basement to take care of her kid costs me and everyone else in the long run. So yes there are good reasons. Moreover, MJ in addicts tends to loose its effectiveness, leading to addiction and eventual need to find something that works, in other words harder drugs, and THAT is a problem.

Heroin, is everything I was just talking about times 1000. And coke and speed. The biggest problem with them is that they are so overwhelming, that a person can easily get to the point of hopeless addiction at which point nothing is more important than getting more. And THAT is the cause of stealing and robbing, and desperation and many other crimes that have nothing to do with the laws against the drug itself. And there is no way off without significant medical help, and who has to pay for that? Not the guy that just sold everything he has to get his next hit. That’s someone who didn’t decide to do drugs.

And please stop with the “I use it responsibly, and theres no problem” Well guess what, even if its true, the population in general doesn’t and has shown over and over again that it can’t make those decisions without costing me as the person who made the right decisions.

And if its not as bad as murder, there can be no reason to outlaw it?? Really?

Same thing goes with the drug dealers and the traffic comment. I know that most of you can just grow a plant in your moms closet, and you think your just giving money to your buddy for a hit of coke, and no harm done. Do you really think that’s where it stops? Do you think that if we made coke legal, the Columbian druglord just says… “well games over, guess all my barriers to selling this stuff went away, so now I can give you poor farmers a pension and health plan.” Just hypothetical questions that are pretty narrow in scope, but require you at least to make minimal attempt to be honest with yourself.

On the sidebar about doctors, don’t you think there is something a little bit morally wrong with allowing witch doctors to perform medicine at a discount? Wouldn’t the overall effect be that poor people would be relegated to dangerously incompetent care, and in the end drive qualified medical professionals that are willing to put forth the effort required to learn the job out of business? Just as an example, there was a rash in Africa of raping because witch doctors were prescribing the raping of virgins to cure AIDS.

Lol ok, no one is going to read all that