Thread: Policing the police

I think we would then need to create a group of citizens to watch over the group of citizens who are watching over the police.

They might also need an oversight group....

Seriously, the problem I see here is interfering with legitimate police activities. Let's say you are a police officer undertaking what is often the most dangerous part of your duties - stopping a car at night. While you're trying to focus on the occupants of the car, some guy pulls up and parks nearby (probably unlawfully) and gets out to film you. At a minimum, this is going to distract you from the job at hand. Which could conceivably get you killed.

Is the person filming you just a random person filing you? Is he / she affiliated with the people in the car setting up to film an attack on you (the way some of these street goons like to film their attacks on random passers-by)?

I think this is an area fraught with problems - including potential abuse by the "watchdogs".

Matt

Originally Posted by dblack

I used to think it would be a valuable public service to create a citizens' group dedicated to documenting the public activities of police officers. Recording videos of arrests seems a reasonable approach to that, and a valuable way to prevent harassment and abuse. Apparently some state governments are in disagreement with that view:



What do you all think?

I can definitely see a case against any activity that interferes with legitimate police activities, but as long as the 'shooter' isn't intruding, I don't see how recording a video and/or posting it online does that. If a police officer doesn't want to look bad, then they should strive not to do bad.

Sounds like they are trying to protect themselves from litigation.

Originally Posted by MattInFla

Seriously, the problem I see here is interfering with legitimate police activities. Let's say you are a police officer undertaking what is often the most dangerous part of your duties - stopping a car at night. While you're trying to focus on the occupants of the car, some guy pulls up and parks nearby (probably unlawfully) and gets out to film you. At a minimum, this is going to distract you from the job at hand. Which could conceivably get you killed.

Is the person filming you just a random person filing you? Is he / she affiliated with the people in the car setting up to film an attack on you (the way some of these street goons like to film their attacks on random passers-by)?

I think this is an area fraught with problems - including potential abuse by the "watchdogs".

Sure... all good points. I'm certainly not condoning or defending interfering with police activities. But what seems to be at issue here is the fact that these videos are potential embarrassing - or even incriminating - to the officers involved. And I don't think that is a reasonable objection.

Originally Posted by dblack

Sure... all good points. I'm certainly not condoning or defending interfering with police activities. But what seems to be at issue here is the fact that these videos are potential embarrassing - or even incriminating - to the officers involved. And I don't think that is a reasonable objection.

I would never want to interfer with police work, but if the police are just "doing their job" why can't it be recorded. Not to discount Matt's example, but I have many times heard the excuse that "you just don't understand police procedures". Sorry I can't buy it.

There was a case in Houston in the late 80's where a "drug task force" followed a retarded girl into her home, guns drawn, put a pistol to her head and demanded to know she bought her drugs (she didn't, she had run across the street where her uncle worked and he put a nickel in her matchbox, being 16 with the mind of a 4 year old she ran back to her parents house) the girl was hysterical finally the police listened to her parents and left, the last officer out of the house said "sorry" over his shoulder. After a big fuss and media show down, the "police spokesman" said people just didn't understand "police procedures". I think had that incident been filmed, some folks would have lost their jobs.

If someone isn't clearly inerfering with police work, they should be able to record. After all the police are "public servants" are they not.

I'm categorically opposed to the idea of passing laws forbidding the filming of police officers in public. If you're making a traffic stop on the side of the road, you are in a public place and no reasonable expectation of privacy exists, IMHO.

There's also a huge First Amendment issue involved - this sort of filming would be by it's nature have an editorial component.

Matt

The leaders of the three states that make recording the cops in public must think all cops are good, all act properly and legally.

(A quick check revealed there are a lot more than 3 states that have the law)

Originally Posted by dblack

I used to think it would be a valuable public service to create a citizens' group dedicated to documenting the public activities of police officers. Recording videos of arrests seems a reasonable approach to that, and a valuable way to prevent harassment and abuse. Apparently some state governments are in disagreement with that view:



What do you all think?

I can definitely see a case against any activity that interferes with legitimate police activities, but as long as the 'shooter' isn't intruding, I don't see how recording a video and/or posting it online does that. If a police officer doesn't want to look bad, then they should strive not to do bad.

I mean hey as long as its illegal for them to surveil me on a public street as well. Take down the red light cams, no more wire taps or stakeout surveillence. Guess COPS is gonna be out of business too.

Such BS. Public street? A-Ok to tape. Cop pulls me over? A-ok to tape.

Originally Posted by MattInFla

I think we would then need to create a group of citizens to watch over the group of citizens who are watching over the police.

They might also need an oversight group....

Seriously, the problem I see here is interfering with legitimate police activities. Let's say you are a police officer undertaking what is often the most dangerous part of your duties - stopping a car at night. While you're trying to focus on the occupants of the car, some guy pulls up and parks nearby (probably unlawfully) and gets out to film you. At a minimum, this is going to distract you from the job at hand. Which could conceivably get you killed.

Is the person filming you just a random person filing you? Is he / she affiliated with the people in the car setting up to film an attack on you (the way some of these street goons like to film their attacks on random passers-by)?

I think this is an area fraught with problems - including potential abuse by the "watchdogs".

Matt

What if i want to have my own tape of the incident for my defense? I set my camera on the dash on record so it can see the vehicle and the cop. How is that interfering with anything? And don't say "because he knows he's on tape he'll be stressed" because when they flick those lights on their OWN camera comes on. Thats what I'm talking about, not a group of people to follow cops around in like a news van or something.

As reality states, they are already being recorded by the dash cams in the police cars. Granted, some things take place outside the view of the cams, but a "citizens group" filming each arrest and stop will accomplish little, and cause more harm than good,IMO.

Originally Posted by stretch351c

As reality states, they are already being recorded by the dash cams in the police cars. Granted, some things take place outside the view of the cams, but a "citizens group" filming each arrest and stop will accomplish little, and cause more harm than good,IMO.

But thats not what the law prohibits. It prohibits ANY FILMING. You can't even film YOUR OWN incident YOURSELF. For instance i could install a dash cam on my own vehicle and turn it on when i get pulled over.

I don't think anyone wants a citizens group to go around and film. But i should be able to record myself.

Originally Posted by reality

But thats not what the law prohibits. It prohibits ANY FILMING. You can't even film YOUR OWN incident YOURSELF. For instance i could install a dash cam on my own vehicle and turn it on when i get pulled over.

I don't think anyone wants a citizens group to go around and film. But i should be able to record myself.

I have no problem with being able to film yourself. But I also do not think we a citizens group as advocated by dblack either. I see to many opportunities for trumped up charges against police.

Originally Posted by stretch351c

I have no problem with being able to film yourself. But I also do not think we a citizens group as advocated by dblack either. I see to many opportunities for trumped up charges against police.

Trumped up charges? What are you talking about? A video could prove that an officer was rogue. Or the opposite.

No, it makes me uncomfortable when a State enacts a law that forbids recording the actions of someone who could literally go a long way in sending a citizen to jail. Remember, the police are public servants, and NOT public masters. They are here, financed by you and me, to protect and to serve the public.

These laws against keeping police actions transparent wreaks too much of the SS in Nazi Germany. If the cops have nothing to hide, they should be fine with anyone taping their behavior.

The truth of the matter is this. Cops are humans. Humans do all sorts of bad things. Getting a badge does not make a perfect human. Yet a cop can literally be a life changing encounter, and cops step way over the line each and every day here in America. If taping would make em act within the law, which it would, we should all be for it.

Originally Posted by dblack

I can definitely see a case against any activity that interferes with legitimate police activities, but as long as the 'shooter' isn't intruding, I don't see how recording a video and/or posting it online does that. If a police officer doesn't want to look bad, then they should strive not to do bad.

I agree - as long as the filming isn't interfering with police activities, then it ought to be perfectly legal. I know there have a been a few times when I had wished I had been able to record the exchanges beteween myself and police officers.