Thread: Self Defense: Yea or Nay

Originally Posted by Steve

They opened the door and saw a guy standing there pointing an AR-15 at them. Should they have asked him if the safety was on?

They battered the door open, the didn't "open it". The resident was standing there with a weapon. They shouldn't have been there to ask any questions at all as he had no record of violence or arrest. Is it standard operating procedure to send a death-squad kicking peoples doors in because a scumbag informant have chosen to drop a dime on someone for a personal grudge?

Originally Posted by JDJarvis

They battered the door open, the didn't "open it". The resident was standing there with a weapon. They shouldn't have been there to ask any questions at all as he had no record of violence or arrest. Is it standard operating procedure to send a death-squad kicking peoples doors in because a scumbag informant have chosen to drop a dime on someone for a personal grudge?

I believe the answer is yes. In cases where the suspect is reasonably considered armed and dangerous the police are perfectly within their rights to lay an ambush. This guy was accused of robbing drug dealers for a living, what makes you think he wouldn't have shot cops?

I repeat, the police are under no obligation to be "fair" to you if it in any way places their own lives in danger. If they violate your rights you have a case to take to court later, you NEVER have ANY right to resist and if you do the consequences are entirely on your head

I'm really distressed that 17 people want to shoot the GS....these are cute little girls, not Jehovah's Witnesses. The least you could do is chain them up as sex slaves in the back yard for a decade or two.

Originally Posted by John Drake

Of course not. The fact that they are cops at the wrong address which one phone call will assess them of ("oh, wait, this guy says they're at 1625 A, that's the wrong side of the street") is of no consequence

So is the Seventh Marine Division and the entire Red Army, either one of which you could be facing down with one weapon

From your impregnable position behind your bulletproof LayZ Boy, boy that Kevlar lining is expensive, isn't it?

7/11's are EVERYWHERE (around where I live they actually have their own littlle desk in each one.)

So if I see men with guns outside my house, I should assume "that they are cops at the wrong address"? You feel free to pursue that angle; I will continue to live in the real world.

In the real world, "the Seventh Marine Division and the entire Red Army", will never be outside my home, either.

The difference is that you would die without a fight because you are afraid of guns, and you refuse to take responsibility for the safety of yourself and your family. Go ahead and run away while the bad men rape your entire family; I will shoot the bastards.

Originally Posted by John Drake

I believe the answer is yes. In cases where the suspect is reasonably considered armed and dangerous the police are perfectly within their rights to lay an ambush. This guy was accused of robbing drug dealers for a living, what makes you think he wouldn't have shot cops?

Robbing drug dealers....as reported by who, drug dealers? Yeah real trustworthy folks they are.

I repeat, the police are under no obligation to be "fair" to you if it in any way places their own lives in danger. If they violate your rights you have a case to take to court later, you NEVER have ANY right to resist and if you do the consequences are entirely on your head

I never rose such a ridiculous juvenile notion as fairness just reasonable law enforcement practices as the constitution has this little clause about "unreasonable" searches.

A death-squad racing to a residence isn't a reasonable search.

If he'd been standing in the hall fiddling with a t.v. remote on his way to answer the door he'd have still been riddled with bullets when the folks who showed up for a fight kicked his door in.

Originally Posted by John Drake

I believe the answer is yes. In cases where the suspect is reasonably considered armed and dangerous the police are perfectly within their rights to lay an ambush. This guy was accused of robbing drug dealers for a living, what makes you think he wouldn't have shot cops?

I repeat, the police are under no obligation to be "fair" to you if it in any way places their own lives in danger. If they violate your rights you have a case to take to court later, you NEVER have ANY right to resist and if you do the consequences are entirely on your head

Are you trying to best your own personal record of idiotic assertions in one post?

"To lay an ambush" to arrest him would be one thing, to bust into his house and open fire would be another.

No, John, the police don't just get to shoot suspects because to not do so might "place their own lives in danger".

And, the most idiotic assertion of all, "you NEVER have ANY right to resist" an illegal police action. So if a rogue cop is going to kill your family, just make sure that you get his badge number for the trial, is that it?

Do you ever think before you post?

Originally Posted by smurf

So if I see men with guns outside my house, I should assume "that they are cops at the wrong address"? You feel free to pursue that angle; I will continue to live in the real world.

In the real world, "the Seventh Marine Division and the entire Red Army", will never be outside my home, either.

The difference is that you would die without a fight because you are afraid of guns, and you refuse to take responsibility for the safety of yourself and your family. Go ahead and run away while the bad men rape your entire family; I will shoot the bastards.

Were my slaves not chained in the safe room I would be worried.

Seriously, I have a walk in closet in my MBR, it has no windows and an old mattress I can pull over the door and put a bureau against. (we have tornadoes) Considering the MBR doors have a deadbolt (I have clever children I don't want traumatised seeing daddy hurting mommy) I think I could hold out until the cops get there.

But go ahead, run outside or make a brave last stand and then see how well your family is treated after you're dead, at least you'll have stood up for your principles and felt like Rambo for 30 seconds or so.

Originally Posted by John Drake

I believe the answer is yes. In cases where the suspect is reasonably considered armed and dangerous the police are perfectly within their rights to lay an ambush. This guy was accused of robbing drug dealers for a living, what makes you think he wouldn't have shot cops?

I repeat, the police are under no obligation to be "fair" to you if it in any way places their own lives in danger. If they violate your rights you have a case to take to court later, you NEVER have ANY right to resist and if you do the consequences are entirely on your head

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about here johnny. You are in fact, wrong. Totally so.
Texas has laws allowing resisting illegal arrests and search and seizure with force, up to and including deadly.

The Self Defense Laws Of Texas
The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:

(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

You're welcome for the education.

Originally Posted by John Drake

Were my slaves not chained in the safe room I would be worried.

Seriously, I have a walk in closet in my MBR, it has no windows and an old mattress I can pull over the door and put a bureau against. (we have tornadoes) Considering the MBR doors have a deadbolt (I have clever children I don't want traumatised seeing daddy hurting mommy) I think I could hold out until the cops get there.

But go ahead, run outside or make a brave last stand and then see how well your family is treated after you're dead, at least you'll have stood up for your principles and felt like Rambo for 30 seconds or so.

Interesting, is it not, that the words cower and coward have the same root?

You go ahead and meekly confirm your status as slave, cowering in your closet from the bad men, while you await the arrival of your betters to save you.

I'll shoot the bastards.

Originally Posted by JDJarvis

Robbing drug dealers....as reported by who, drug dealers? Yeah real trustworthy folks they are.



I never rose such a ridiculous juvenile notion as fairness just reasonable law enforcement practices as the constitution has this little clause about "unreasonable" searches.

A death-squad racing to a residence isn't a reasonable search.

If he'd been standing in the hall fiddling with a t.v. remote on his way to answer the door he'd have still been riddled with bullets when the folks who showed up for a fight kicked his door in.

You have no way of knowing that, there's a big and rather obvious difference between an AK-47 and a Samsung 250.

As far as whether the search is reasonable or not all the gun did was cost the guy lots of money in a big time lawsuit. Dead men's estates can't sue if the decedent was resisting arrest. I"m going to put this in caps in hopes you might understand. YOU CAN'T LEGALLY RESIST ARREST, WHETHER THE ARREST IS LEGAL OR NOT. Cops can and do make mistakes in this matter every day, that does NOT give you the right to kill them.

Originally Posted by John Drake

You have no way of knowing that, there's a big and rather obvious difference between an AK-47 and a Samsung 250.

As far as whether the search is reasonable or not all the gun did was cost the guy lots of money in a big time lawsuit. Dead men's estates can't sue if the decedent was resisting arrest. I"m going to put this in caps in hopes you might understand. YOU CAN'T LEGALLY RESIST ARREST, WHETHER THE ARREST IS LEGAL OR NOT. Cops can and do make mistakes in this matter every day, that does NOT give you the right to kill them.

You're not real good at the whole reading comprehension thing, are you johnny?

Originally Posted by John Drake

You have no way of knowing that, there's a big and rather obvious difference between an AK-47 and a Samsung 250.

As far as whether the search is reasonable or not all the gun did was cost the guy lots of money in a big time lawsuit. Dead men's estates can't sue if the decedent was resisting arrest. I"m going to put this in caps in hopes you might understand. YOU CAN'T LEGALLY RESIST ARREST, WHETHER THE ARREST IS LEGAL OR NOT. Cops can and do make mistakes in this matter every day, that does NOT give you the right to kill them.

I'll put this in all caps for you, John, though I doubt that you will understand:

JUST BECAUSE YOU WANT SOMETHING TO BE TRUE, DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.

reality (the poster) just showed where you are wrong about resisting arrest, and considering your track record, I'd be willing to bet you just made up the part about a deceased person's ability to bring a wrongful death suit, as well.

Originally Posted by smurf

Are you trying to best your own personal record of idiotic assertions in one post?

"To lay an ambush" to arrest him would be one thing, to bust into his house and open fire would be another.

No, John, the police don't just get to shoot suspects because to not do so might "place their own lives in danger".

And, the most idiotic assertion of all, "you NEVER have ANY right to resist" an illegal police action. So if a rogue cop is going to kill your family, just make sure that you get his badge number for the trial, is that it?

Do you ever think before you post?

Not very much on this board, no, it isn't necessary.

Try shooting a cop, and then saying you thought he was a "rogue" at the trial, and/or you thought the arrest was illegal. (assuming you ever even make it there)

And yes, police get to defend their lives without checking with a lawyer first, just as you so vehemently claim you do too. They may pay for it later but they don't have to stand there and let someone shoot them because there may be a legal question.