Thread: FAA to expand access to civillian airspace for drones.

Thread title changed to reflect the actual topic of the thread.

Originally Posted by soot

Why? If you don't mind my asking.

I understand that recently law enforcement has been getting a shit load more high speed gear and that politicians are writting laws that make it easier to identify, locate, track, detain and punish actual criminals.

But I haven't seen any indication at all that those laws or that gear has been put to use targeting every-day law abiding American citizens for reasons completly unrealted to legitimate law enforcement purposes.

Where are the unreasonable searches, interrogations, surveillance, arrests, etc...

Where are the political prisoners and/or the prisoner of conscience?

What exactly is going on in the United States that would lead you to believe that we're doing anything other than giving law enforcement better tools to do the job for which we as a society employ them in the first place?

I know that a lot of people (including several others in this thread) feel the way that you do, but I've yet to see or hear about anything that in actual practice could be used to justify having those feelings.

See bold. The genius of these laws is that we would not necessarily have to hear about it if/when it happens. If someone is "suspected" of "terrorism", they can literally be whisked away straight to GITMO in the middle of the night without a singe witness.

It means that as corporate authoritarianism starts to take hold, they can hide behind these Acts allowing them to take out anyone who is either climbing up the ladder of success and refusing to go along and get along; silence public speech opposing various business practices; spy on anyone they deem a "threat" to their monopoly of power; using surveillance to determine one's routine to know exactly when "falsified evidence can be placed to frame an innocent person for a crime they did not commit. These "laws" allow our Constitution to be shredded without actually shredding it. None of those Acts would ever withstand scrutiny to be amended to the Constitution. They are clearly in direct conflict with out civil liberties but we tolerate it in the name of security...I think it's bullshit. We can amp up security without having to take away rights or giving the executive branch authority to revoke citizenship on a whim. We can be made safe without having to refuse due process to accused citizens.

This a dark path we are going down. Drones flying overhead to me is nothing more than containment of the population. It's giving license to mega-corporations to spy on citizens. Think about it. These "Private Security" companies include private investigations as part one of their many mercenary services. Could you imagine what they would be capable of if allowed to use surveillance drones? While it is legal for a private citizen to hire a PI to stalk their spouse under suspicion of adultery without any probable cause to do so other than a hunch...the government technically cannot (though they are doing well with changing that little bits at a time).

It is hard to ignore the increased "security" measures that are happening at the Federal Level. The problem comes in with are we still in a conspiracy nuts tin foil hat or is this really being put together piece by piece for an overall crackdown on us.

As has been pointed out, many bills have been signed to law that if they were put in one single bill I think most would go ballistic even in Congress over it. Then add the things done outside the legislative process.

It is starting to feel like we have moved from Conspiracy to reality of a Police State.

BTW Police already censor the flow of information about crimes committed. Numbers are not reported. Example is last week on Monday there was a shooting on my street. That was in the news. Last Friday there was another shooting involving the same people, most likely a retaliation by a gang. Not one news source in my area or State reported anything about it despite it being at 4am when people start to wake up, over 2 dozen police cars and 2 helicopters.

Sounds to me like censorship as I cannot imagine why the local news didn't report it.

Originally Posted by soot

.....
But I haven't seen any indication at all that those laws or that gear has been put to use targeting every-day law abiding American citizens for reasons completly unrealted to legitimate law enforcement purposes.

Where are the unreasonable searches, interrogations, surveillance, arrests, etc...

Where are the political prisoners and/or the prisoner of conscience?

.......

How about these?

After 9/11, Congress and the president enacted legislation to strengthen the intelligence-gathering community’s ability to combat domestic terrorism. The USA PATRIOT Act allows law enforcement to search e-mail and telephone communications in addition to medical, financial and library records.
The act also expanded the practice of using National Security Letters, which are administrative subpoenas that require certain people, groups, or companies to provide documents about certain people. These subpoenas carry a gag order, meaning the person or people responsible for complying may not mention the National Security Letter. Under USA PATRIOT Act provisions, law enforcement officers may use these subpoenas when investigating U.S. citizens, even when the officers do not think the individual under investigation has committed a crime. An agency need not obtain a warrant before searching records.

from Search & Seizure Law | 4th Amendment | Right to Privacy | Exclusionary Rule | Illegal Search | Attorneys | Lawyers | Law Firms | Attorneys | Lawyers | Law Firms

Or

Soon after the September 11, 2001 attacks U.S. President George W. Bush issued an executive order that authorized the National Security Agency (NSA) to conduct surveillance of certain telephone calls without obtaining a warrant from the FISC as stipulated by FISA (see 50 U.S.C. § 1802 50 U.S.C. § 1809 ). The complete details of the executive order are not known, but according to statements by the administration,[47] the authorization covers telephone calls originating overseas from or to a person suspected of having links to terrorist organizations such as al-Qaeda or its affiliates even when the other party to the call is within the US.

wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy]NSA warrantless surveillance controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

or



Less than 1% of the warrantless searches conducted as relating to national security and the war on terror were actually related to terror.

The Patriot Act: 10 years of Illegal Searches and Seizures and you still don’t care? « YourDaddy's Politics

The USA Patriot Act, the law granting the government vast surveillance powers that was adopted in the wake of September 11, turns a decade old Wednesday.
But despite its namesake of “Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism,” the law seemingly is being invoked far more to target domestic crime than for fighting terrorism.


The act, which has remained largely the same since President George W. Bush signed the legislation six weeks after 9/11, among other things gives the government powers to acquire phone, banking and other records via the power of a so-called “national security letter,” which does not require a court warrant.
National security letters, perhaps the most invasive facet of the law, are written demands from the FBI that compel internet service providers, financial institutions and others to hand over confidential records about their customers, such as subscriber information, phone numbers and e-mail addresses, and arguably websites you have visited.

The FBI need merely assert, in writing, that the information is “relevant” to an ongoing terrorism or national security investigation. Nearly everyone who gets a national security letter is prohibited from even disclosing that they’ve received one (the automatic gag order provision was struck down in a rare legal loss for the Patriot Act, but they persist in practice). More than 200,000 letters have been issued by the FBI.

and

Americans that take photographs in public places are now considered to be potential terrorists by many over-zealous state employees that have bought into all the "war on terror" rhetoric and the irrational fear-mongering it has brought with it. According to WJZ-13 CBS in Baltimore, several Maryland Transit Administration (MTA) officials recently detained a man illegally for simply snapping a few pictures at a train station -- and the detaining officers tried to use the Patriot Act as justification for their abusive actions.

When Christopher Fussell was approached by three MTA officers at the Baltimore Cultural Light Rail Station, he tried to explain to the officers that, lawfully, he was free to take pictures as long as they were for personal use and not for commercial purposes. But Fussell's correct assertion was immediately met by the stark ignorance of what can only be dubbed the new American police state, which is marked by disregard for the law and arbitrary rule-making.

"Not on state property, not without proper authorization," said one of the officers in response to Fussell's declaration of picture-taking rights. "The Patriot Act says that critical infrastructure, trains, train stations, all those things require certain oversight to take pictures, whether you say they are for personal use or whatever, that's your story."

The officer's statements, of course, are grossly inaccurate. But this fact did not stop him and the others from harassing and illegally detaining Fussell for nearly an hour before finally releasing him. And based on statements made by higher-ups at the MTA following the incident, such activity apparently happens routinely, and without so much as a slap on the wrist.

According to reports, the MTA has not even issued an apology to Fussell, but has instead tried to justify the abusive behavior of its officers by claiming they "have become very sensitive post 9/11," and that the agency is doing what it can to teach its officers that citizens are free to take pictures without government intrusion. But this cop-out excuse does not justify continued abuse of individual liberty and personal freedom, nor does it let the MTA or any other agency off the hook for illegally detaining innocent individuals.

Learn more: Transit officers cite Patriot Act to illegally detain man for taking pictures at train station

from
Transit officers cite Patriot Act to illegally detain man for taking pictures at train station


A simple google search was all it took to find these, there were many more examples, i just picked some of the first on the results list.

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

Remote control hobby aircraft, are loud and cannot be flown at 40k feet. They have limited range. Drones can be controlled from thousands of miles away, fly at high altitudes for hours at a clip out of sight and zoom in to a zit on your ass. Drones can be weaponized and be used with deadly precision.

Just wanted to correct you on this...not all r/c aircraft used by hobbyists are loud. Many of the electric ones are totally silent once they reach a certain altitude and gliders are silent though the aircraft that takes them up isn't.
(BTW, the aircraft is radio controlled.)