Thread: Live Free or Die, huh?

Think of it another way though...say the burglar escapes from your property and the police can't catch him and he thinks its an easy area to target...what happens when the next week or month, when he targets your neighbor or property down the road where there's defenseless old grandmother, or children or young(er) folks living and they can't defend themselves or get hurt or get killed by the same person...doesn't that prick your conscience, as well? Or what if it wad the other way round and he fled your neighbor's property and you could have stopped it...if he comes back for your place and hurts one of your family/friends/loved one, can you live with that?

Now granted, i'm not even sure what the laws are in France and to what extent you could do what to defend yourself, but you know what, when the law is on your side why look that gifthorse in the mouth?

Originally Posted by Traveler

Think of it another way though...

That's an AWFUL lot of "what if"s.

What if the guy was arrested, learned the error of his ways, and went on to live a moral and productive life that would put both of our's to shame, say, curing cancer and then inventing a perpetual motion machine?

Either way, it's all nonsense.

We can imagine any circumstances we want and then imagine a thousand permutations to each of those but the facts as they stand are that you're talking about gunning down a man in cold blood who presents no real threat to you or anyone else simply because you're afraid he might some day turn into the boogieman.

I call that cowardice.

You're welcome to call it whatever you like.

The "law" is on the side of the pro-abortion crowd but I don't place much stock in their twisted opinions either.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Think of it another way though...say the burglar escapes from your property and the police can't catch him and he thinks its an easy area to target...what happens when the next week or month, when he targets your neighbor or property down the road where there's defenseless old grandmother, or children or young(er) folks living and they can't defend themselves or get hurt or get killed by the same person...doesn't that prick your conscience, as well? Or what if it wad the other way round and he fled your neighbor's property and you could have stopped it...if he comes back for your place and hurts one of your family/friends/loved one, can you live with that?

Now granted, i'm not even sure what the laws are in France and to what extent you could do what to defend yourself, but you know what, when the law is on your side why look that gifthorse in the mouth?

Well, if the intruder just happened to be Osama Bin Laden or Hannibal Lecter , we wouldn't be having this conversation. So, for the sake of discussion, assume it's just a guy, unarmed, who doesn't threaten you and tries to run away with your stuff. IMO, to have killed a man when you really didn't have to is not a gift, it's a curse.

WRT France, owning a firearm is somewhat complicated but still possible, and you may use proportionate force to defend yourself or someone else. Shoot a guy who's running away with your stuff, you're doing time. I'd say five years minimum. Probably more.

Originally Posted by soot

That's an AWFUL lot of "what if"s.

What if the guy was arrested, learned the error of his ways, and went on to live a moral and productive life that would put both of our's to shame, say, curing cancer and then inventing a perpetual motion machine?

Either way, it's all nonsense.

We can imagine any circumstances we want and then imagine a thousand permutations to each of those but the facts as they stand are that you're talking about gunning down a man in cold blood who presents no real threat to you or anyone else simply because you're afraid he might some day turn into the boogieman.

I call that cowardice.

You're welcome to call it whatever you like.

The "law" is on the side of the pro-abortion crowd but I don't place much stock in their twisted opinions either.

The difference is that i see the moral distinction between criminals and the unborn ; you apparently don't if you equate my argument with theirs. I'm not sure there is any more a pro life member left on this board when it comes to opposition to abortion, but i see no need to offer and extend that respect for life to violent criminals such as burglars/murderers etc.

As for you thinking its cowardice, well if someone breaks into your or your neighbor's home and eventually returns to finish the job taking yours or someone else's life that you either love or know, i hope you die on that same principle and peril by your sword rather than have a last minute conversion as you meet St Peter, but i doubt you would have that sort of capacity now, would you?

I don't mind that you think my opinions are sick and twisted (which seems to be what you are inferring) but i hope you can stand on your own pearls of moral righteousness, when your time comes calling.

And for the record, i don't put much stock into rehabilitation of violent felons ; you may have a bleeding heart for them, but i certainly don't.

If you wont shoot a person to protect your property why dont you just hang a sign outside that says Please rob me.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

If you wont shoot a person to protect your property why dont you just hang a sign outside that says Please rob me.

Because I don't want to be robbed. I also don't want to shoot anyone. And that would probably put me in the position to have to choose between two distasteful propositions. Oh, wait, that was sarcasm, right?

Originally Posted by AdrienXII

Well, if the intruder just happened to be Osama Bin Laden or Hannibal Lecter , we wouldn't be having this conversation. So, for the sake of discussion, assume it's just a guy, unarmed, who doesn't threaten you and tries to run away with your stuff. IMO, to have killed a man when you really didn't have to is not a gift, it's a curse.

It doesn't have to be an either or in Texas or most states in the US....if you aim a gun squarely at the individual he's pretty likely to come to a screeching halt no matter what he's doing, and assuming he hasn't got a weapon or already drawn one, you take it from there...if he moves of course you pull the trigger and end up re-decorating the surrounding area with his entrails and nervous system. Most intruders won't chance their life on the notion you may end up in trouble for killing them, if they have any sense at all. They only break in and steal because they think they'll get away with it and end up with a bunch of loot to boot ; not to have a real life scenario to test castle laws and doctrines. Also to be perfectly frank, i don't want the guy to get out of jail one day and still be a potential threat to society, so if someone gets into a situation like this and ends up blowing the intruders brains out, then i am all the happier. If he doesn't get caught, and comes back to the finish the job realizing the homeowner could be the only person to recognize him/end up putting him behind bars, then the good dead of not killing him comes back to bite, does it not?

WRT France, owning a firearm is somewhat complicated but still possible, and you may use proportionate force to defend yourself or someone else. Shoot a guy who's running away with your stuff, you're doing time. I'd say five years minimum. Probably more.

See, that's the other thing...in Texas, you go away for a long time for armed robbery/breaking and entering/armed tresspassing etc. In France, the odds are, even if you call the cops, the guy who came after you in the first place would end up out much sooner and the potential to comes back to continue to hurt you is still significant. Your judicial system is nowhere near as stringent as ours.

Now don't get me wrong, i know the laws in France are nowhere near as strong as they are in some parts of the US, so in no way am i advocating that you try gunning down someone for stealing something from you if you happen to be on the streets of Paris. If it was Paris, Texas, then it'd be a totally difference situation of course.

Originally Posted by AdrienXII

Because I don't want to be robbed. I also don't want to shoot anyone. And that would probably put me in the position to have to choose between two distasteful propositions. Oh, wait, that was sarcasm, right?

no it isnt sarcasm......Idealistic attitudes towards scumbags breeds more scumbags. Shooting scumbags that break in to my home means less scumbags trying to get in my house...Also less chance my step daughter and wife being raped and me and my step son being murdered.

Originally Posted by AdrienXII

Because I don't want to be robbed. I also don't want to shoot anyone. And that would probably put me in the position to have to choose between two distasteful propositions.

But you can't really determine the latter, unfortunately...you can control the former, and what you chose to do, though. Btw going up to your original point of the memory of it and the fact you may haunted of it, wouldn't the thought of actually being attacked and whatever scars that leaves, and the subsequently firing to kill be more difficult to cope with/recover from, than just a clean shot to someone, one, through the head? Seems like it'd be far less painful, and graphic...

Traveler, our system does work. Maybe it's not perfect, maybe God frowns on us for being lenient on the criminal...However, our society doesn't disintegrate, and it is, arguably, less violent than that of the US. Personally, I can't relate in the slightest to your stated desire to have the opportunity to execute someone for wronging you. I think it is, sorry, a little sick.

No, that's fair enough...i think we have both defined our lines of where we feel and yes i guess for wronging me i feel it justified to kill if i have the legal right to do so, but i haven't really heard you say that you wouldn't kill either, under some circumstances, no?

As for France...i dunno about disintergrate but i do dispute the safety aspect/element, i mean it may be less violent in some instances but i don't think homeowners have the protection we do in the US. It is a fundamental right of ours, and i think it should be anywhere in the world.

Originally Posted by Traveler

But you can't really determine the latter, unfortunately...you can control the former, and what you chose to do, though. Btw going up to your original point of the memory of it and the fact you may haunted of it, wouldn't the thought of actually being attacked and whatever scars that leaves, and the subsequently firing to kill be more difficult to cope with/recover from, than just a clean shot to someone, one, through the head? Seems like it'd be far less painful, and graphic...

Possibly, but that's not what we were discussing Traveler. As I said, I have no objection to the use of deadly force, per se. I just disagree with you that it's reasonable, or even moral, to use it in the defense of property.

Yeah, on that i think we have a major philosophical difference. I think its mainly a cultural thing though, its commonly accepted in a lot of the US these days (got off to a slow start a decade or so ago, though) but in most of Europe its totally frowned upon. We have the odd exception to the rule here or there, but for the most part the stereotype tends to fit.