Thread: I Rest My Case On Gun Control

Originally Posted by OldmanDan

As far as your 9/11 comparison, there is no Constitutional right to fly. Making it more difficult to get a weapon on an airplane does not take away my Constitutional rights to protect myself from both a bad guy or an out of control government. With our current economic situation and the hate that is being ginned up in the political world, the impending collapse of social programs under their own weight, I can see an uprising coming where everyone, in my opinion, should be armed.

I've never understood why the second ammendment takes precedence over all others in the Constitution. Why is that one ammendment protected above all others? The Patriot Act took the 4th, 5th and 6th ammendments and flushed them down the toilet, but I hard almost nothing in outcry from people, whether it be members of Congress, the public or members on this Forum.

Originally Posted by noahath

I've never understood why the second ammendment takes precedence over all others in the Constitution. Why is that one ammendment protected above all others? The Patriot Act took the 4th, 5th and 6th ammendments and flushed them down the toilet, but I hard almost nothing in outcry from people, whether it be members of Congress, the public or members on this Forum.

Probably because of the seriousness of 9/11 and not wanting to take a chance on it happening again. There was some outcry but it never gained a lot of traction.

Originally Posted by OldmanDan

Probably because of the seriousness of 9/11 and not wanting to take a chance on it happening again. There was some outcry but it never gained a lot of traction.

But my point is thatalmost 3,000 people died in 9/11, and 3 Constitutional amendments were trashed; more than 12,000 people were murdered in 2011 in the USA by guns, and nothing has happened. The 2nd amendment is afforded a level of protection that others don't receive, and I don't understand why. If citizens are so fearful of their govt that they need to be armed to protect themselves, then surely the 4th amendment is more important?

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

LOL Unfortunately, some of the anti-gun fanatics would love to see gun owners do just what your post says!

Oh I know. Some of the posts show it... and blatantly so.

Originally Posted by noahath

But my point is thatalmost 3,000 people died in 9/11, and 3 Constitutional amendments were trashed; more than 12,000 people were murdered in 2011 in the USA by guns, and nothing has happened. The 2nd amendment is afforded a level of protection that others don't receive, and I don't understand why. If citizens are so fearful of their govt that they need to be armed to protect themselves, then surely the 4th amendment is more important?

there was not nearly 12,000 murderd by guns in 2011. that is a lie the anti gun people are pushing, see what ehy do is call homocide murder and it is not, so if a cop shots a robber or a private citizen shoots a robber that is a homocide. more guns are used in self defense every day than commit murder. that is also something the anti gun people refuse to mention.

Originally Posted by sailorman126

there was not nearly 12,000 murderd by guns in 2011. that is a lie the anti gun people are pushing, see what ehy do is call homocide murder and it is not, so if a cop shots a robber or a private citizen shoots a robber that is a homocide. more guns are used in self defense every day than commit murder. that is also something the anti gun people refuse to mention.

Incorrect. The FBI's own data for 2010 shows that there ws 8,775 murders committed in the USA by firearms. Gun crime statistics by US state: download the data. Visualised | World news | guardian.co.uk

Originally Posted by noahath

Incorrect. The FBI's own data for 2010 shows that there ws 8,775 murders committed in the USA by firearms. Gun crime statistics by US state: download the data. Visualised | World news | guardian.co.uk

And California, with some of the strictest laws has the highest number of murders.

The reason "nothing" is done about all the crime involving firearms is because what liberal morons WANT done about crime involving firearms does nothing to actually address the problem. That is the one basic, data-supported fact liberals will never, ever admit to. Gun control laws DO NOT FUCKING WORK!!!! Liberal brain dead fuckups have been hammering firearms rights for 8 decades, and all those laws have done is take away the rights of those who obey the law. Liberals are so used to the lies told them by their political masters they cannot grasp the idea that, like the Patriot Act, gun control laws are NOT about protecting the people (because they don't as every crime rate statistic available clearly points out), but rather about securing more and more power for the government. The government, along with their high finance, money laundering croneys don't give a ripe pig fart about the people. Obama does not give a ripe pig fart about the People. Romney does not give a ripe pig fart about the People. Nor did BUsh, nor does Kerry, nor does either Clinton, Carter, Reagan, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. They want the glory of controlling the most powerful nation in the world. And they pursue more and more control over this nation on a daily basis.

And to whomever complained they did not see any protesting over the Patriot Act, even on political discussion sites like this, all I can say to that is they must have been living in a remote cave in inner Mongolia.

Originally Posted by John Drake

Strangely, the Japanese would be the first to disagree with you on that. And most Westerners find Japan to be among the most Western of Oriental cultures and very similar to America. Of all Westerners Japanese generally like Americans the best, and it's because they see us and them as being very similar people. NOT because we are both accepting of immigration, (you are right in that they are homogenous and consider it a point of pride to be so) but they also have no trouble taking from another culture whatever they wish, and feeling no threat to their own in doing that. As far as immigrants they consider expatriates to be curiousities and attractive in their exoticism rather than the objects of hate and derision that seems the American attitude.

I'm not sure if you're not overestimating American's deep distrust for the state, though I can't really answer for how anarchic we are comparatively. I do know that most all foreigners expect Americans to be patrotic, sometimes overbearingly so.

Yakuza is their name for organized crime but it's also what they call street gangs, of which they have more than enough. Watch the anime Durarara if you don't believe me.

They catch more criminals because their police are much better trained, ethical and amazingly less corrupt. The people don't turn in any more lawbreakers than we do. As far as shame being a factor you are confusing shame with face and they are not the same thing. A criminal with a long record would be respected by his fellows and even some by the general populace, but if he turned informant he would lose face and this would be among both other criminals and society in general.

So you point out significant differences in the area of crime control, while simultaneously claiming there are few differences. All you look at is the fact that they have all but banned personal firearms, and then look at their lower crime rates involving firearms, and connect the two with duct tape and ignorance.

As pointed out before, their crime rates were already lower than the U.S. before they implemented their draconian, confiscatory laws. Also, as pointed out before, Japan is currently experiencing increased firearms related crimes. How do you explain that when they have already done what you are calling for in the U.S.?

Anti-gun idiots are CONTINUALLY pointing out lower crime rates in countries with strict gun control. Funny that you ignore other countries (Mexico, anyone?) with strict gun control laws and high crime rates, other countries with lax gun control laws and low crime rates, etc. Put it all into a scatter chart and perform an HONEST statistical analysis, and the correlation between gun control laws and firearms related crimes in less than 0.65. In the world of statistics, that means NO APPARENT CORRELATION EXISTS.

But, let's look at Japan again. By your own admission, due to fewer restraints on the actions of law enforcement, they prosecute a far greater percentage of crimes than we manage to do. Additionally, their sentencing is liable to be far harsher (with the exception of a lack of death penalty) than our CJ system hands down, thus keeping their criminals in prison longer. Their prisons are not exactly nice places to visit, either. No free pool halls, bowling alleys, or cable TVs to be found.

Thing is, just MAYBE crime rates are more associated with the way criminals are prosecuted, than having to do with the availability of firearms. Just MAYBE. But, you see, actually finding and addressing the REAL causes of high crime rates (and not just those involving firearms) in the U.S is too complex to run a political campaign on. But it is so EASY to demonize those nasty GUNS that crazy people like to keep around.

Originally Posted by Good Luck

The reason "nothing" is done about all the crime involving firearms is because what liberal morons WANT done about crime involving firearms does nothing to actually address the problem. That is the one basic, data-supported fact liberals will never, ever admit to. Gun control laws DO NOT FUCKING WORK!!!! Liberal brain dead fuckups have been hammering firearms rights for 8 decades, and all those laws have done is take away the rights of those who obey the law. Liberals are so used to the lies told them by their political masters they cannot grasp the idea that, like the Patriot Act, gun control laws are NOT about protecting the people (because they don't as every crime rate statistic available clearly points out), but rather about securing more and more power for the government. The government, along with their high finance, money laundering croneys don't give a ripe pig fart about the people. Obama does not give a ripe pig fart about the People. Romney does not give a ripe pig fart about the People. Nor did BUsh, nor does Kerry, nor does either Clinton, Carter, Reagan, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. They want the glory of controlling the most powerful nation in the world. And they pursue more and more control over this nation on a daily basis.

And to whomever complained they did not see any protesting over the Patriot Act, even on political discussion sites like this, all I can say to that is they must have been living in a remote cave in inner Mongolia.

One thing that I have never understood is that by-and-large the same people who oppose gun control also vehemently support the Patriot Act. Those two things should be mutually exclusive, but they're not. Ive never yet heard a reasonable argument as to why conservatives oppose gun control, but think the Patriot Act is a good thing. It's not.

Originally Posted by noahath

One thing that I have never understood is that by-and-large the same people who oppose gun control also vehemently support the Patriot Act. Those two things should be mutually exclusive, but they're not. Ive never yet heard a reasonable argument as to why conservatives oppose gun control, but think the Patriot Act is a good thing. It's not.

I am not a conservative. I am a moderate democrat. But I disagree with you on both counts. I support the private right to own a firearm. I also support the gun control act of the 1930s, and by and large I support the Patriot act with just a few reservations. They are not mutually exclusive at all.

Originally Posted by noahath

One thing that I have never understood is that by-and-large the same people who oppose gun control also vehemently support the Patriot Act. Those two things should be mutually exclusive, but they're not. Ive never yet heard a reasonable argument as to why conservatives oppose gun control, but think the Patriot Act is a good thing. It's not.

Can't say about the dichotomy because it confuses me also. Only conclusion I can find that makes sense is the people who oppose gun control but support the Patriot Act are republicans, not conservatives.

I oppose both all gun control laws which place any limitation on the rights of lawful citizens AND the Patriot Act. I also oppose the new FISA laws that were instituted under Bush and strengthened under Obama. I also oppose the new language added to this session's NDAA. And Obamacare, and the SCOTUS decision that says it is OK to tax the people into submitting to federal laws that otherwise have no constitutional authority.

Of course, I am equally confused by those who are all bothered by the Patriot Act and FISA, while supporting strict(er) gun control laws, supporting (or at least not criticizing) Obama's signing of the 2012 NDAA, and just okee-dokee the idea that the federal government can force the People to purchase privately offered services or penalty-tax them for not doing so. Again, the only conclusion that comes close to explaining it is they are democrats first and foremost, as mindlessly obedient to their political masters as the Bushites they love to criticize for being blindly partisan.

BTW: your assessment "by-and-large" is, in my experience, not exactly accurate. Large numbers (I'd say even a majority) of those who choose to label themselves conservative have HUGE problems with many of the provisions in the Patriot Act, with the institution of draconian security at airports, and a whole host of other government usurpations that have occurred under both parties in response to the attacks of 9-11-01.

OTOH, partisan republicans have little problem ingesting elephant shit, just as partisan democrats thrive politically on a steady diet of donkey shit. Perhaps it is partisanship that causes dogmatic hypocrisy?

Originally Posted by OldmanDan

And California, with some of the strictest laws has the highest number of murders.

ahoy OldmanDan,

but matey, that proves nothin' (other than the fact that California hath a very, very large population).

- MeadHallPirate