We already have a uniformed public health service. Why not request that a research hospital be built in every state so that we can learn more about health care in order to reduce costs to the individual consumer of statism?

We could reduce duplication in government bureaucracy by merging the PHS with the department of veterans affairs.

Well, shit, why stop there?

Why not cite the Revolution as an example?

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...

How about the Internet? It was started and designed by the DoD, it's still largely run by the Government

How about the FCC?

How about the Interstate Highway System?

How about the Weather Bureau, which, despite that picnic of yours they spoiled in 1975, achieves an almost phenomenal accuracy rate and is heavily relied upon by all industry having anything to do with weather?

How about ANY of the regulatory agencys, which generally keep all of several thousands of competing entities working together in a harmony so complete we are the world's envy for industrial production?

I realize, of course, that none of these will be seen as working at all by you if they have any problems of any kind whatsoever. This is a totally logical stance, for, as we all know, private enterprise delivers all of its products and services with absolute and total reliabilty, and no business in the history of the world has ever failed.

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Alizee Jacotay, the reason god invented hips

I could, but the republicans could not get a well built Edsel out of it, much less a more holy and moral ideal during an alleged health care "crisis".

Ideally, an individual would be able to save money, tax exempt, for health care related purposes (e.g. health care premiums, co-pays, office visits, and other forms of health care insurance products and services): unfettered.

If we were looking to run weather services or highway systems, I'd say you have a point. But we're talking about healthcare, not industrial production or broadcasting.

I can't see where the administration of those things is indicative of a state of readiness to even approach trying to deal with healthcare...

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...

Unemployment compensation at-will could be as easy to administer as minimum wage laws are now.

I am sorry, you are using social security and the "new deal" as examples of government that works?

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"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."

They are all large, complicated and expensive systems heavily dependent on scientific and/or engineering knowledge and the proper application of technology for their success. Health care is, admittedly, unique, but then so are all these systems.

OK, fine. You want resemblance, how about the National Parks? Parks are ecosystems, very viewable as living things, we even commonly talk about the "health" of a park and the parks in general. Government has done a pretty good job with them.

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Alizee Jacotay, the reason god invented hips

The "New Deal" largely worked if it was allowed. Is the rural South still largely not electrified?

Social Security, despite the fact that it's imminent demise has been predicted for the past two decades, has not failed yet.

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Alizee Jacotay, the reason god invented hips

Neglected? Not at all. It's just typical of 'conservatives' round here to leap as soon as a good argument comes along.

Lets.

Not when it started, and how many elders have missed a monthly check that wasn't tied to a family thief or some other fraud. Not - many IOUs to speak of. None in fact. You'll get yours too - then perhaps your tune will change.

That's not a reflection of the benefit or purpose of the program which has lasted for about 75 years. Theft is a sympton of the dollars not watching the pennies - an easy fix.


Our public school system is working - it's not what conservatives view as politically correct, but its's turning out graduates who go on to high education and fine carreers. Kids School luch Programs etc do their thing. Public education has been around since writing in Sumeria, oh 'bout 6,000 years ago. The trouble is we don't treat education as a priority in this country: like we should our vets as well.

Let's see.. Oh yeah, the county health facilities aren't bad. My sister-in law has breast cancer - and no insurance: Highland hospital in Oakland is right there though - fully staffed, a full line up of doctors over from UCSF doing some cutting egde work. Lots of paitients everywhere: had my tonsils out there when I was four. If you want more, I would suggest you some of your own research and see what's out there.


I thought you would fail, that's why I threw it in. WWII is the most striking example of our federal government focusing on something 110% and everybody getting behind it with the purpose of completing [the task - any task] and reaping the overall benefits. Never mind what it was for or any of that. The point is that's what happens when we collectively want something to work - Niel Armstrong is another example.

Iraq, ben Ladin ( one guy!!), Faith Based Initiatives etc are great examples of what happens when government isn't payin attention.

Much in this country works and works very well - you just don't like the government, which is okay, but for purposes of debate, you need to be a bit more substantive.

So your theory is that even though every other industrialized state in the world has a national health system that provides better outcomes than the US system, at much lower costs, American people are too stupid to do something that French, Italian, English, Danish, Swedish, Canadian, etc. people do now.
Is it because the American government is inferior or is it that the American people are just too stupid?

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“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

I think it's because American society operates on some subtly different values and assumptions than these other countries. It's by no means black and white, but it's different enough that large scale public programs are problematic.

Look at what congress is doing right now. Even though a majority of voters and politicians have bought into the idea that the government should provide for our health care, they're a creating steaming pile of manure rather than nationalizing health care properly. In the end we'll have a legislative nightmare that satisfies the desires of all the "major players" - Insurance, Doctors, Big Pharma, Business - and does virtually nothing to address the problem.

Excellent argument, and points taken...

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...

Dude, you posted your argument only several hours prior.

I have this thing; you might try it, it's called a job.

My apologies for not being at your beckon call but, you know, fuckin' deal with it.

As for the "conservative" comment, that's just stupid, and it negates any compulsion to address your points, as you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Go read up on some of the gay marriage or prayer in school threads and then come back and tell me how "conservative" I am...

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...

Where the fuck did you get all of that horseshit from?

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...