In the context of political rights, freedom = liberty. The concept of a "free country" refers to political rights / freedoms / liberties. Your "complete picture" conception is something altogether different. I find the attempt to conflate the two notions disingenuous. Clarity is more useful, and honest.

Don't get me wrong. Political rights/liberties are giving you freedom. Thats not what I'm arguing. Freedom is more than just rights and liberties, so its not altogether different. If your having to maintain 3 jobs to get ends to meet. Then are you really free? No, I would argue that your not. You actually have to have some degree of free time as well to even contemplate or benefit your freedoms. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Nanny state often just involves greater tax pressure. So is not paying higher taxes a right? What about progressive tax? And why does that constitute less freedom? Which btw, was what smurf where arguing.

I realize that's your contention. And that's one way to define freedom. But, IIRC, you were responding to a reference to "free country", which specifically means a country that guarantees political freedoms. Trying to question one version of "free", with another, largely unrelated definition, strikes me as subterfuge rather than discourse.
It depends on which version of the word you're using. That was my point. The phrase "free country" is referring to liberty, so the need for three jobs to get by, while it would suck, isn't related to whether you're living in a "free country" or not.

I do. And it's a worthwhile point to make. I just bristle at word games. I'm not saying it was your personal intent to mislead - equivocation is commonly used in political campaigns. But I find it leads to less understanding, not more.

Taxes, by their very nature, are coerced payments. Taxes take away your freedom to decide whether or not you want to pay for the service they are funding. Higher taxes, take away more freedom. That's not always a bad thing - trading freedom for security is the nature of government. but it isn't something we should resort to just because the taxation is "for a good cause". We should use taxation, and thus government solutions, only when necessary. There are all kinds of ways to make good things happen in society that don't require taxation or the force of law.

Maybe I structured it wrongly. I must be getting tired.

A free country in my understanding would be a sovereign state which didn't have any negative international entanglements. Ie, vassalage or dominion. But I understand what your getting at. A free states in opposition to a totalitarian states. Those notions we measure in terms of the liberties any given country gives it citizens. But freedom as a personal notion is something different. So to live free to me is not purely about liberties. Its about the abilities to pursue happiness, or not to be done something against. Which isn't the same as liberties. Ie, you don't have the right not to be stabbed on the street. So your sense of freedom could be your ability to walk safely on the streets.

Did that make any sense to you? I can try to make it a bit more clear when I'm not this dead tire if you like.

Actually. I would include in the notion of a "free country" that a citizen had the ability to do as they like. Not solely liberties. So to claim that people don't want to live in a free country because some people wanted to give a greater sense of real freedom to people. I find backwards. But not entirely surprising knowing this board.

I don't think I've mislead at all. I just explored the notion that a free country simply doesn't only include liberties.

I don't see taxes as that at all. I see them as our share of the burden to keep society running. I see them as our responsibility to contribute that society functions. I see them as a guarantee for our continued happiness. I don't mind at all to pay 33% or 48% tax, on top of that I pay very high VATs on nearly every article. I'm not always looking to gain a buck here and a buck there. The ability to make a more than decent living and still have a lot of time to do as I chose to do. Spend time with my family and knowing their provided for and is safe even if I wouldn't be here tomorrow. Is more important than the money I could ever save by not paying taxes. To me thats real freedom. So you'll just have to excuse this liberal socialist if I don't by into grand speeches of a "free country".

In essence, yes, this is freedom, and we like it. Its not perfect, but for every person stuck in a deadend job, there is someone who starts their own business and becomes their own boss. This is much better than everyone being risen or reduced to mediocre or acceptable.

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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson

Franklin D. Roosevelt: "The Economic Bill of Rights"

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“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

Thank you, goober, for displaying the utter idiocy of the original American socialist, fdr. It is but a short step from those so called "rights", to the absurdity of, "Obama's gonna [sic] pay my mortgage"!

No he's not really selling insurance.

Insurance companies are regulated because they are investing the money. They are not directly providing the services.

In this case, the doctor was doing nothing more than what attorneys do with pre-paid legal, or what a car dealer may choose to do with pre-paid maintenance. It isnt insurance by any means. It is pre-payment for basic services at a discount.

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In case you were wondering, yes, there really ARE more idiots these days....technology has made natural selection obsolete.

Silence is golden...Duct tape is silver.

Freedom does not mean you can act without consequences. It is you who is misunderstanding.

Lets use your example of being unable to move because you cannot sell your home without taking a financial loss. Nobody is STOPPING you from moving - you simply do not want to take the loss. You are still free to do so. You may not like the consequences of that, but that doesnt take away your ability to do so.

Same thing with the job you described. If you are unable to change jobs because you do not believe you can find something else, that is YOUR fault. Improve your skills and thereby improve your options. For example, I have a job right now - quite a good one in fact - but I also have a number of options on the table from other potential employers - yes, even in this economy. Why? Simple - my skills are in demand.

Your description of freedom is insane. Freedom, in the political sense, has NOTHING to do with having the time or money to do whatever you like. That is a goal many of us strive to achieve, but it is DEFINITELY not something to which you have a right.

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In case you were wondering, yes, there really ARE more idiots these days....technology has made natural selection obsolete.

Silence is golden...Duct tape is silver.

The freedom to pursue happiness does not guarantee that one will achieve happiness. To be free to succeed, one must be free to fail. You do not understand freedom.

Do you consider Albania, Belarus, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Croatia, Ethiopia, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Ukraine to be examples of "the most stable and prosperous nations"?

Someone is certainly "talking out of his ass".

A light at the end of the tunnel?

Hot Air Blog Archive WSJ/NBC poll shows ObamaCare fading; Update: Poll data coming out later