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Health Care A forum for discussing the US health care debate and proposals. All threads on this subject shall be posted here.

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Secretary of Defense
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinebar View Post
Hot Air Blog Archive Can Congress force me to buy health insurance?

The above link outlines pretty well why it may be unconstitutional for congress to mandate health insurance. If anyone else has other links please provide them.

Look at each item separtely:

!. The power to tax in the national Interests for the purpose of providing health care for all.

2. The drafting of a law to initiate such program that embraces "all" who would care to participate and carries a premium significantly lower than Private plans and has transportability.

The Tax (On Business) would be used to fund the difference between expenses and premiums collected (if necessary).

We already have a federal unemployment tax on all businesses reimbursed by each state on a formula basis. Constitutional ? Well it 'has been and is currently in effect.

No one will be forced to take the Federal Insurance !

Think this would fly ???
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Jul 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,857

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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic1 View Post
Look at each item separtely:

!. The power to tax in the national Interests for the purpose of providing health care for all.

2. The drafting of a law to initiate such program that embraces "all" who would care to participate and carries a premium significantly lower than Private plans and has transportability.

The Tax (On Business) would be used to fund the difference between expenses and premiums collected (if necessary).

We already have a federal unemployment tax on all businesses reimbursed by each state on a formula basis. Constitutional ? Well it 'has been and is currently in effect.

No one will be forced to take the Federal Insurance !

Think this would fly ???
If you're asking if it would attract bi-partisan support, yeah, some Republicans would vote for a voluntary plan. OTOH, if you want an overwhelming support from them, add interstate commerce of health care and tort reform.

It doesn't address the constitutionality, but since when was that important?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Speaker of the House

 
Member Since: Nov 2008
Location: Louisiana
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic1 View Post
Remember it's not over 'till the fat lady sings ! "USSC"

Where is it prohibited that the government can lawfully tax the inhabitants to provide National Health Insurance and a law structured that will provide for the implementation and maintenance of such ?

Section 8 Item 1 and Item 18

Item1..."Provide for the common Defence and General Welfare of the United States"

Item 18..Write such law as needed to implement the program.

The power is there. IMO only the vote is in question.
Well you may be right but I think if this thing gets passed with a mandated provision I can guarantee you it will wind up in the SCOTUS and they will have to decide how much more power they want to give Congress. However I read through the tax code and to the best of my knowlege (I'm not a tax expert) there is no provision that would allow them to impose a tax penalty for simply not having health insurance. It all deals with income and reciveing things of value. Nothing in there that give Congress the power to tax or impose a tax penalty on anything other than recieving things of value. Now I guess they could add a provision but I think ultimately it will have to be decided by the Supreme Court.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Town Council Member

 
Member Since: Sep 2009
Location: pluto
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleTed View Post
I think the Constitution's prohibition on Bills of Attainder makes punishing people for not buying insurance impossible constitutionally. Nonetheless, I wouldn't count on Congress', the President's, or the Supreme's oaths of office to uphold the Constitution as any reliable indication they will.
Bills of attainder? That's an anachronism. What flux capacitor brought you to the 21st century? What about documents under seal, dower and curtsey? Holy crap.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Speaker of the House

 
Member Since: Nov 2008
Location: Louisiana
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
Then is it unconstitutional for states to mandate automobile insurance?
Auto insurance is different. For starters driving is a privilege not a right and one has the option of not driving. However as the article indicated existing is a right protected by the constitution and forcing people to buy something simply for existing is a violation of that right. That's what the author of the article suggested but he is an expert and I'm not.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

So if everyone is taxed equally and extra $3000, and a $3000 tax credit given to those who have Health Insurance, then the problem is avoided. Since the government gives tax credits for all kinds of things, from energy efficient insulation to windmills, and hybrid cars, what would be wrong with a tax credit for having health insurance?
And adding a head tax for each citizen is surely legal constitutional, so the mechanism is available, it all depends on how the law is written.
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"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic1 View Post
Remember it's not over 'till the fat lady sings ! "USSC"

Where is it prohibited that the government can lawfully tax the inhabitants to provide National Health Insurance and a law structured that will provide for the implementation and maintenance of such ?

Section 8 Item 1 and Item 18

Item1..."Provide for the common Defence and General Welfare of the United States"

Item 18..Write such law as needed to implement the program.

The power is there. IMO only the vote is in question.
The power is not there. The bill of rights reserves power to the peoeple if its not specified in the constitution. Healthcare regulation and health insurance are not in the constitution. The founders explained that the general welfare clause was not a blank check.

Quote:
Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare.
The question is, why cant we pass an amendment to specifially give the govt power to provide healthcare, instead of just assuming govt has it? The answer is of course, it would fail. People dont want it.
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-Thomas Jefferson
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Speaker of the House

 
Member Since: Nov 2008
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
So if everyone is taxed equally and extra $3000, and a $3000 tax credit given to those who have Health Insurance, then the problem is avoided. Since the government gives tax credits for all kinds of things, from energy efficient insulation to windmills, and hybrid cars, what would be wrong with a tax credit for having health insurance?
And adding a head tax for each citizen is surely legal constitutional, so the mechanism is available, it all depends on how the law is written.
Nothing would be wrong with a tax credit for health insurance and in fact that's actually a great idea but the problem is HR3200 is proposing a tax penalty not a tax credit. The tax credits you mention don't impose a tax penalty for not doing those things as far as I know. And if the government imposes a tax and then an equal tax credit why not just have the tax credit without the imposing the tax in the first place. But I think I see what you are saying. With the tax it would force people to get health insurance but then we are right back to being forced and the question of weather it is unconstitutional.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Secretary of Defense
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinebar View Post
Well you may be right but I think if this thing gets passed with a mandated provision I can guarantee you it will wind up in the SCOTUS and they will have to decide how much more power they want to give Congress. However I read through the tax code and to the best of my knowlege (I'm not a tax expert) there is no provision that would allow them to impose a tax penalty for simply not having health insurance. It all deals with income and reciveing things of value. Nothing in there that give Congress the power to tax or impose a tax penalty on anything other than recieving things of value. Now I guess they could add a provision but I think ultimately it will have to be decided by the Supreme Court.
They would not need a tax penalty because there would be no provision for the need to have them be covered.

From the forties up to sixty five the desire for a Medicare type program is strong. If this type of insurance was available competing private insurance would shrink to "0" except as an outsource company providiing processing services and "all" would IMO get on the bandwagon. Premiums for others who are indigent will be handled as they are presently.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
dblack's Avatar
U.S. Senator

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Philadelphia PA
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinebar View Post
Nothing would be wrong with a tax credit for health insurance and in fact that's actually a great idea but the problem is HR3200 is proposing a tax penalty not a tax credit.
Tax credits are just tax penalties for all those who don't qualify. It's pure semantics. So I agree that with goober, a tax penalty is just as right, or in my opinion, wrong, as a tax credit. The government shouldn't use the tax code to implement otherwise unconstitutional penalties.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Secretary of Defense
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinebar View Post
Well you may be right but I think if this thing gets passed with a mandated provision I can guarantee you it will wind up in the SCOTUS and they will have to decide how much more power they want to give Congress. However I read through the tax code and to the best of my knowlege (I'm not a tax expert) there is no provision that would allow them to impose a tax penalty for simply not having health insurance. It all deals with income and reciveing things of value. Nothing in there that give Congress the power to tax or impose a tax penalty on anything other than recieving things of value. Now I guess they could add a provision but I think ultimately it will have to be decided by the Supreme Court.
There will be no mandate except fot the business tax at federal level for funding back up.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Secretary of Defense
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinebar View Post
Auto insurance is different. For starters driving is a privilege not a right and one has the option of not driving. However as the article indicated existing is a right protected by the constitution and forcing people to buy something simply for existing is a violation of that right. That's what the author of the article suggested but he is an expert and I'm not.
As I suggested "NO MANDATE" Just "an offer you can't refuse".
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Secretary of Defense
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

"1523945]The power is not there. The bill of rights reserves power to the peoeple if its not specified in the constitution. Healthcare regulation and health insurance are not in the constitution. "The founders explained that the general welfare clause was not a blank check"

NO BLANK CHECK INVOLVED.

"The question is, why cant we pass an amendment to specifially give the govt power to provide healthcare, instead of just assuming govt has it? The answer is of course, it would fail. People dont want it"

NOT TRUE ! Or at best Unsubstantiated right wing horseshit !
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2009
Secretary of Defense
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinebar View Post
auto insurance is different. For starters driving is a privilege not a right and one has the option of not driving. However as the article indicated existing is a right protected by the constitution and forcing people to buy something simply for existing is a violation of that right. That's what the author of the article suggested but he is an expert and i'm not.
no mandate just a deal you can't refuse if your head is screwed on properly !
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2009
Secretary of Defense
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Re: An interesting article about unconstitutional healthcare mandate

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinebar View Post
Nothing would be wrong with a tax credit for health insurance and in fact that's actually a great idea but the problem is HR3200 is proposing a tax penalty not a tax credit. The tax credits you mention don't impose a tax penalty for not doing those things as far as I know. And if the government imposes a tax and then an equal tax credit why not just have the tax credit without the imposing the tax in the first place. But I think I see what you are saying. With the tax it would force people to get health insurance but then we are right back to being forced and the question of weather it is unconstitutional.
Is anyone aware that for many the greatest and only tax they pay is the payroll tax AND even that can be reduced by the "Earned income Credit" that refunds portions of the payroll taxes ?

In what I propose just like medicare use is not necessary but premiums are increased for every year part (B) I believe is not selected. IMO The means existonly the vore is required.
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