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Health Care A forum for discussing the US health care debate and proposals. All threads on this subject shall be posted here.

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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
By that reasoning, we should have had amendments for the wars on crime, drugs, poverty, and terror.
Drugs, poverty, yes. Protecting the lives of citizens from willful human physical threat is already part of the constitution. But Im not opposed to amendments when we are unsure.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

As more supporting evidence, here is a veto message by President Buchanan when he rejected Congresses attempt to dispose of public lands to people and states for the purposes of homesteading and other state uses. Today we do that with various pork projects.

Quote:
It would require clear and strong evidence to induce the belief that the framers of the Constitution, after having limited the powers of Congress to certain precise and specific objects, intended by employing the words "dispose of" to give that body unlimited power over the vast public domain. It would be a strange anomaly indeed to have created two funds--the one by taxation, confined to the execution of the enumerated powers delegated to Congress, and the other from the public lands, applicable to all subjects, foreign and domestic, which Congress might designate; that this fund should be "disposed of," not to pay the debts of the United States, nor "to raise and support armies," nor "to provide and maintain a navy," nor to accomplish any one of the other great objects enumerated in the Constitution, but be diverted from them to pay the debts of the States, to educate their people, and to carry into effect any other measure of their domestic policy. This would be to confer upon Congress a vast and irresponsible authority utterly at war with the well-known jealousy of Federal power which prevailed at the formation of the Constitution. The natural intendment would be that as the Constitution confined Congress to well-defined specific powers, the funds placed at their command, whether in land or money, should be appropriated to the performance of the duties corresponding with these powers. If not, a Government has been created with all its other powers carefully limited, but without any limitation in respect to the public lands.
James Buchanan: Veto Message
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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
timj219
There is certainly a constitutional issue over the idiotic "war on drugs". As there is with the equally idiotic, undefined and eternal "war on terror". The so called war on terror is the subject of at least dozens of lawsuits working their way through the courts right now. And when obama releases his plan for indefinite detention (which was supposed to be awhile ago but has been delayed) there will undoubtedly be more.
Funny how you left out the single most expensive "war" out there, the one that has sucked up more money than either of the two you've mentioned and been just as, if not more ineffective. I refer of course to the "war on poverty"
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
Funny how you left out the single most expensive "war" out there, the one that has sucked up more money than either of the two you've mentioned and been just as, if not more ineffective. I refer of course to the "war on poverty"
At least the war on poverty is aimed at improving the lives of citizens. There is some societal good involved there. That cannot be said of the other two.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie S. View Post
Why? I don't believe there are constitutional issues with crime fighting or resisting terrorists.
I would like to see a constitutional challenge over welfare, however.
The Constitutional issues with those artificial wars on abstractions is that the federal government is only delegated those powers by the several States of the Union. The general government of the Union does not have any inherent and organic police powers as do the several States.

Raising money for the general welfare is a specifically enumerated reason for the power to tax.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
timj219
At least the war on poverty is aimed at improving the lives of citizens. There is some societal good involved there. That cannot be said of the other two.
Yeah, we would be so much better off with more widespread drug use and terrorists slaughtering our citizens on a regular basis.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jviehe View Post
Drugs, poverty, yes. Protecting the lives of citizens from willful human physical threat is already part of the constitution. But Im not opposed to amendments when we are unsure.
I think we have too many amendments already.

Providing for the common Defense is specifically enumerated while providing for the common Offense or general Warfare is not. We should not have any Wars on abstractions as they do not provide for the common defense or general welfare of the republic.

Last edited by danielpalos; 11-10-2009 at 08:10 AM.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

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Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
Funny how you left out the single most expensive "war" out there, the one that has sucked up more money than either of the two you've mentioned and been just as, if not more ineffective. I refer of course to the "war on poverty"
It is only a warfare-state that would have a "war" on poverty. A welfare-state would have simply complied with existing federal doctrine and state laws to accomplish the same thing, but in a much more market friendly manner.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by dblack View Post
But by allowing the constitutional constraints to be ignored for certain things, like health care for example, we make it that much easier for them to ignore them in other cases, like unlimited spy and jail powers. How's about we just play it straight in both cases?

(and, as has been pointed out elsewhere, that doesn't mean we can't have government health care, it just means we have to address the constitutional issue - through legitimate amendment procedures - to do it.)
IMO there is no constitutional constraint involved.

It is possible our entire government could take on a socialist demeanor if in its actions it did not conflict with the "bill of rights".

Madison was right to fear the strength of Atticle 1 section 8 item 1 and his fear meant he recognized it to be a legitimate avenue of incredible power to legislate control. However others felt it necessary to be in position to change the government of a purely Capitalistic nature if called for he and under the methods we chose to be governed signed off on the constitution.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

BTW, just for the record, I am not saying I neccesarily disagree with the notion that many of our drug laws and enforcement activities at the Federal level are not provided for under the scope of the original understanding of the Constitution. Nor am I particularly passionate about anti-drug laws (except for selling to minors which I think should be a life in prison, NO possibility of parole offense first time). However, never cease to be amused by lefties who attack the propriety and/or constitutionality of our federal drug laws without realizing that the exact same reasoning would apply to 90% of what they DO support the Federal Government to do.

If we apply a more restrictive interpretation of the Commerce Clause to negate federal drug laws, we must also apply that same standard to such wonderfully extra-constitutional things as the federal minimum wage.
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

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Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
Yeah, we would be so much better off with more widespread drug use and terrorists slaughtering our citizens on a regular basis.
Alcohol is both legal and socially acceptable; it also does more "slaughtering" of our citizens on a yearly basis than did the "terrorists".
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
If we apply a more restrictive interpretation of the Commerce Clause to negate federal drug laws, we must also apply that same standard to such wonderfully extra-constitutional things as the federal minimum wage.
There is nothing preventing our Congress from implementing a drug war in DC and other federal property. However, our federal Constitution (and our Bill of Rights) specifically applies to the general government of our federal Union.

The Constitutional question is about States' rights, privileges, and immunities.
The repeal of Prohibition clearly repealed the only delegated power to Prohibit forms of Commerce (i.e. Alcohol and its use as a powerful mood altering drug).

Regulating commerce should require a tax to defray that expense and form of market based metric.

Last edited by danielpalos; 11-10-2009 at 09:16 AM.
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
Why wouldn't a federal minimum wage be part of the official weights and measures of that form of Commerce?
You clearly don't understand what the phrase "weights and measures" means.

Using your obscenely stretched definition above, "weights and measures" could be applied to anything from the content of your speech to the property you own to who you can marry.

Fortunately, nobody else seems to share your warped definition.

Matt
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
I think we have too many amendments already.

Providing for the common Defense is specifically enumerated while providing for the common Offense or general Warfare is not. We should not have any Wars on abstractions as they do not provide for the common defense or general welfare of the republic.
Article one section 8 Item 1 of our Constitution says "Provide" for the common Defence "and" general Welfare of th United States (meaning inahabitants of in both cases) It "is" enumerated in the constitution !
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2009
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Re: Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing

Quote:
Originally Posted by dblack View Post
But by allowing the constitutional constraints to be ignored for certain things, like health care for example, we make it that much easier for them to ignore them in other cases, like unlimited spy and jail powers. How's about we just play it straight in both cases?

(and, as has been pointed out elsewhere, that doesn't mean we can't have government health care, it just means we have to address the constitutional issue - through legitimate amendment procedures - to do it.)
No constitutional constraints are ignored. Your "solution" would require endless amendments. This clause was written to allow congress to carry out its responsiiblies without endless amendments. The health care bill contains no provisions which are new or unprecedented or rise to the level of scary constitutional challenge.
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