Thread: "Government health care will cost us too much" is a myth

Originally Posted by soot

I don't know that they're opposed to the poor HAVING healthcare so much as they're (rightfully) opposed to being asked to pay for one more service for the poor.

Personally, I don't want to pay for one more service for the poor.

I'm not rich, but any such national provision is going to come, in part, out of my pocket.

Where the fuck does it end?

I'm already paying for welfare, medicaid, child nutrition, food stamps, child support, energy or utility assistance, vocational rehabilitation, education grants, what else?

Now I'm going to pay for national health care too?

Fuck that.

I don't really care about poor people. I don't really care about their kids.

I would never do anything deliberately to hurt them or make their situation worse but I don't see why I'm on the hook for making their situation better.

How about "the halls of representive power" start figuring out a way to get people off of the public tit or alternatively find ways to start making the poor useful.

Why do I have to pay for welfare and at the same time pay for DPW crews (who are earning grossly exagerated wages plus overtime, plus double time, plus double time and a half on holidays, plus benefits, plus a public pension that I don't even have access to despite my taxes funding their fucking pension plan) to fix the roads?

You want welfare and other benefits, grab a fucking shovel and earn it.

That's what the government should be doing.

You want free national healthcare? Go reclaim swampland, or go cut firebreaks in our national parks, or go scan paperwork for the government so we move our document storage and retrival systems into the 21st century and then get rid of the thousands of useless government bureaucrats who spend all day filing and retriving hard copies of documents.

I whole heartedly agree with everything you've said.

I'm not an evil man by any means. I just don't see why I have to be responsible for the lowest common denominator. I pay enough in federal, state, and local taxes as it is and there is plenty of work to be done.

Let's face it, it's not like there aren't plenty of options available for each individual to actually better themselves.

Originally Posted by ConLib View Post
Of course, you always ignore when facts are posted, so you can keep up the inane drivel about this. Once more, it actually cost us over $1.2 trillion more each year than it would costs if we simple copied the health care system of any nation, but one. If we copied that one, Norway, it would save us $800,000,000.

Originally Posted by JohnLocke

It is not posted anywhere. What a fallacious thing to say! Talking about what health care costs "us" shows your collectivist thought process. There is a difference between what individuals choose to spend their money on from the waste, fraud and abuse programs that government forces on "us."

You are either joking or did not even read what you replied too. I posted the figures above, you choose to ignore and say the figures aren't posted.

It is your position then that you pay for all of the government services that you and your family receive, plus pay in even more?

That would be an interesting case to have to prove, or to disprove.

My own suspicion is that most of us get back way more in services than we pay out. I even suspect I get back more in services than does a poverty stricken homeless person. I suspect that when the numbers be crunched, middle class Americans get back more in services than they pay in, and that the amount is much greater than any of our poor receive. For instance, what does some poor person need an Interstate Highway System for? They don't have a car.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

It is your position then that you pay for all of the government services that you and your family receive, plus pay in even more?

No, it's my position that I pay for the poor to enjoy any service or benefit at all.

What I recieve is immaterial.

For instance, what does some poor person need an Interstate Highway System for? They don't have a car.

So that a truck can deliver the government cheese from Wisconson, and the Welfare worker can get to the office to cut his check, and the bus can take him the the local community college where he's going to school tuition free...

Need I go on?

Yeah, sure I use all those things too - but the fact of the matter is I'M PAYING FOR IT.

He is not.

Not one red fucking cent.

So if I want to bitch about his deriving ANY benefit from his free ride, while I derive a greater benefit due to the fact that I'm not indigent, than what fucking business of his is it?

He just needs to say "thank you", and then STFU.

He sure as hell better not have one hand out looking for more and the other pointing at me as the stingy fiscal conservative who's ruining his life by not giving him more.

Originally Posted by ConLib

I posted the figures above, you choose to ignore and say the figures aren't posted.

The figures do not answer my question. My question is about an analysis to offset the $1 trillion of real costs. To be clear, the trillion is above what we are paying now in terms of the federal budget.

Let me answer my own question. The government has no intention of off-setting costs. They plan to increase taxes.

Originally Posted by ConLib

Originally Posted by ConLib View Post
Of course, you always ignore when facts are posted, so you can keep up the inane drivel about this. Once more, it actually cost us over $1.2 trillion more each year than it would costs if we simple copied the health care system of any nation, but one. If we copied that one, Norway, it would save us $800,000,000.




You are either joking or did not even read what you replied too. I posted the figures above, you choose to ignore and say the figures aren't posted.

wow so you made up a number and post it as a fact
lmfao
you have not once provied any factual numbers

Originally Posted by Donahue

I'm very far from an ideologue, my friend.

I don't really care who comes up with a good idea, so long as it's a good idea.

We're not on the same page at all though. Universal health care isn't cheaper than fee-for-service health care, per se, but rather costs are dependent on what's covered, etc. The reality is there are certain things European nations do which would cause Americans, liberals specifically, to riot.

More importantly, and while you may not want to believe this, universal health care isn't really working out so well in most of Europe. Countries like France and the United Kingdom are having an extremely difficult time keeping costs down, particularly over the past decade, and have struggled to balance reducing services with increasing fees. Co-pays and hourly fees for hospital parking spots have become the norm while effective drugs are denied approval based solely on price. It's almost absurd to think either France or UK will get through the decade without substantial reductions in coverage or switching to a fee-for-service system like we have.

At some point there just isn't enough money.

You asked me about philosophical differences but I think those pushing universal health care really need to ask themselves if they're looking to improve health care or improve their favorite candidate's odds of winning in 2012.

Nobody has claimed that something like a perfect system exists, such a claim would be idiotic. Of course european systems are struggling with their own sets of problems, and yes, overall costs have risen over the last decade. But that is hardly a logical counterargument against universal health care as such. Since still the country with the hugest health budget per capita, Germany, spends considerably less per capita than the US with better results. Therefore is no "need" to change to a fee for service system, since that would be MORE expensive overall.
European countries offer a wide variety of healthcare systems, from NHS systems like Britain, Luxembourg or Italy till mixed systems like in Germany with a public and a private option with different roles for the governement and different levels of regulation. All have their merits and their downsides and certainly none is perfect. If you want to make an effort to discuss about that and which models could be interesting for America please make an effort to really do it and don´t just post claims. ("effective drugs beeing denied" where ? by whom ? a private opinion, a tabloid headline or a study ? ). I could find tons of heartbreaking tabloid stories from american hospitals as well, but does that make a convincing case for or against a complete system of health care ? Hardly

Originally Posted by Voland

Nobody has claimed that something like a perfect system exists, such a claim would be idiotic.

Huh? Did I claim anyone said there was a perfect system?

Originally Posted by Voland

Of course european systems are struggling with their own sets of problems, and yes, overall costs have risen over the last decade. But that is hardly a logical counterargument against universal health care as such.

I suspect your opinions have more to do with with party loyalties than anything else but if looking at the many problems universal health care systems are currently experiencing while pushing a universal health care system in this country is illogical, what exactly is logical? Simply ignoring those problems?

Originally Posted by Voland

Germany, spends considerably less per capita than the US with better results. Therefore is no "need" to change to a fee for service system, since that would be MORE expensive overall.

Huh? I don't know that going to a fee-for-service service system would be more expensive or that Germany actually gets better results, but who said anything about Germany needing to change in the first place?

Originally Posted by Voland

European countries offer a wide variety of healthcare systems, from NHS systems like Britain, Luxembourg or Italy till mixed systems like in Germany with a public and a private option with different roles for the governement and different levels of regulation. All have their merits and their downsides and certainly none is perfect. If you want to make an effort to discuss about that and which models could be interesting for America please make an effort to really do it and don´t just post claims. ("effective drugs beeing denied" where ? by whom ? a private opinion, a tabloid headline or a study ? ).

Anything that I've said is easily verifiable if you had any interest in thinking for yourself. I don't care if you want to be a silly ideologue intent on pushing a party agenda but please don't tell me what to and not to post.

For someone telling another what to post and what not to, you're batting below the Mendoza line today.

Originally Posted by Donahue

Huh? Did I claim anyone said there was a perfect system?




I suspect your opinions have more to do with with party loyalties than anything else but if looking at the many problems universal health care systems are currently experiencing while pushing a universal health care system in this country is illogical, what exactly is logical? Simply ignoring those problems?



Huh? I don't know that going to a fee-for-service service system would be more expensive or that Germany actually gets better results, but who said anything about Germany needing to change in the first place?




Anything that I've said is easily verifiable if you had any interest in thinking for yourself. I don't care if you want to be a silly ideologue intent on pushing a party agenda but please don't tell me what to and not to post.

For someone telling another what to post and what not to, you're batting below the Mendoza line today.

What is the point of your post? What are you trying to say? Are you saying that the experiences of every other major modern nation are wrong?

Originally Posted by Donahue

I suspect your opinions have more to do with with party loyalties than anything else but if looking at the many problems universal health care systems are currently experiencing while pushing a universal health care system in this country is illogical, what exactly is logical? Simply ignoring those problems?



Huh? I don't know that going to a fee-for-service service system would be more expensive or that Germany actually gets better results, but who said anything about Germany needing to change in the first place?




Anything that I've said is easily verifiable if you had any interest in thinking for yourself. I don't care if you want to be a silly ideologue intent on pushing a party agenda but please don't tell me what to and not to post.

1. My opinions are mostly based on getting health care at an affordable and reasonable price. And my opinion is NOT based on any party agenda for the simple reason that universal healthcare is unquestioned in this country for more than the last century. Universal healthcare has been a conservative project here by the way. And I have never denied problems nor suggested ignoring them. I have not even suggested the US to introduce a system based on any european model since that is YOUR business. I have objected to you posting nonsensical claims about Europe as a counterargument to universal healthcare.

2. You claimed Britain and France were needing to change for financial reasons while I pointed out that even Germany, that is ahead of them in healthcare spending per capita, is doing considerably better than the US. Clear enough ?

3. I have not told you what or what not to post in the least. I have asked you to back up your claims, which you clearly did not.

Originally Posted by ConLib View Post

Of course, you always ignore when facts are posted, so you can keep up the inane drivel about this. Once more, it actually cost us over $1.2 trillion more each year than it would costs if we simple copied the health care system of any nation, but one. If we copied that one, Norway, it would save us $800,000,000.

Originally Posted by sailorman126

wow so you made up a number and post it as a fact
lmfao
you have not once provied any factual numbers

You say that, and don't even put up a smilie, there are several that would show your obvious joke. My figures are correct, you post nothing in rebuttal.

Therefore, I win and you lose. Now, if you'd care to actually post some facts about our medical cost such as Healthcare Costs Around the World -

You might not be a laughing stock.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

What is the point of your post? What are you trying to say? Are you saying that the experiences of every other major modern nation are wrong?

Quite the opposite, my friend.

I'm asking you to put aside your partisanship and look at what their experiences are actually like. Contrary to the idyllic fantasy being pushed by proponents, most European nations are experiencing the exact same problems and frustrations we are.

Originally Posted by Voland

1. My opinions are mostly based on getting health care at an affordable and reasonable price. And my opinion is NOT based on any party agenda for the simple reason that universal healthcare is unquestioned in this country for more than the last century. Universal healthcare has been a conservative project here by the way. And I have never denied problems nor suggested ignoring them. I have not even suggested the US to introduce a system based on any european model since that is YOUR business. I have objected to you posting nonsensical claims about Europe as a counterargument to universal healthcare.

But were were looking at European health care specifically!