Thread: U.S. Scrambling to Ease Shortage of Vital Medicine

Originally Posted by C-B-M

Wow, you gotta be kidding. The VA has the highest overall quality? Are you high on crack?

Also, to CowboyTed, you don't seem to comprehend that a) surveys are meaningless to me and b) surveys that are focused on "fairness" and "equity" but which are presented as "rankings of quality" are disingenuous. Also, if you don't live in the U.S., then your views are even more puzzling. As I said to another poster, why is it that liberal Europeans constantly tell Americans how to run America? Do you see us all posting on how Ireland needs to change their healthcare system? We don't even care about Ireland's healthcare system. It's pretty funny. Why do you think that is?

The sign on the door say US politics, not US politics for Americains...

If you wish to talk about Irish Politics I direct you to politics.ie... Don't worry they won't give out to you for being American.

Originally Posted by kwilliam10

Weren't the Dems lamenting the low quality of the VA System, just 4 years ago? Blaming Bush for such horrible care...making it seem like only THEY care about our soldiers health care? Are you saying the Obaminator fixed all that, in just 3 years??

Clinton fixed it during the 90's.
He fixed it so good, that even Bush and a GOP congress couldn't screw it up.

Bush tried, he considered spending money on veterans a waste.

Originally Posted by goober

I'll take a shot.
Is it, The United States of America?
We have three systems here, private, the most expensive health care in the world.
Single Payer Medicare - less expensive

and Government Run Health Care - the VA- least expensive, and highest overall quality.

Good Logic especially when you see this:
VA Health System Shines in Quality-of-Care Study - Public and Intergovernmental Affairs

Originally Posted by C-B-M

Wow, you gotta be kidding. The VA has the highest overall quality? Are you high on crack?

Also, to CowboyTed, you don't seem to comprehend that a) surveys are meaningless to me and b) surveys that are focused on "fairness" and "equity" but which are presented as "rankings of quality" are disingenuous. Also, if you don't live in the U.S., then your views are even more puzzling. As I said to another poster, why is it that liberal Europeans constantly tell Americans how to run America? Do you see us all posting on how Ireland needs to change their healthcare system? We don't even care about Ireland's healthcare system. It's pretty funny. Why do you think that is?

By the way it is nice to see your now taking on the man not the agruement... I have quoted figures from leading health organizations world wide while you have still to form an arguement for:


Still asking out there. US is running a total healthcare costs about 5% of GDP above the every other country in the world.
Can some one point it out to me a proper size first world country where where a more socialized healthcare system is cheaper then less socialized healthcare system...

Is Goober's answer the one to hold because he is the only one to actually try to put answer together.

The rest have tried to say the quality of the care in US is superior with actual proof but was easilly rebuttaled by showing the the opposite is true.

There was a nice personal attack in there but that just shows that one might be running out of real arguements.

Originally Posted by kwilliam10

But...I do believe all countries include/exclued infant mortality inequitably. Most countries do not include low birth-weight babies (that don't survive 24 hrs) as viable...but rather as miscarriages, while the US does. In fact...the US goes WAY further to try to keep a preemie than most other countries. Even if that means losing many, that will then count against their infant mortality rates. While most other countries, simple dont' try, and chalk them up as miscarriages. Excuse me...but I'll take the country that tries and fails...over the country that doesn't try at all.

I don't recall all the differences...but, point being, if everyone isn't collecting the data THE SAME WAY...and with the SAME RULES....statistics are meaningless.

“If you call a tail a leg, how many legs has a dog? Five? No. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.” — Abraham Lincoln.

The US CDC issued a report that stated that the American rates of infant mortality were affected by the United States' high rates of premature babies compared to European countries. It also outlined the differences in reporting requirements between the United States and Europe, noting that France, the Czech Republic, Ireland, the Netherlands, and Poland do not report all live births of babies under 500 g and/or 22 weeks of gestation. The report concluded, however, that the differences in reporting are unlikely to be the primary explanation for the United States’ relatively low international ranking

Products - Data Briefs - Number 23 - November 2009


So while I do agree with you there is a cause for maniplulation it has been shown 'unlikely to be the primary explanation'.

Either way I am still talking about cost, There has been nothing to show US has a superior health sysytem to justify the 50% excess.


Can I ask people on this discuss to start putting hyperlinks to stats they are using as it makes it easier for verification.

Originally Posted by C-B-M

Wow, you gotta be kidding. The VA has the highest overall quality? Are you high on crack?

I've received care in several VAMCs and have never had a bad experience or come away from the experience feeling like I received short schrift because it was government care.

By comparison I've also received care at some of the best hospitals in the northeast (eg. NY Presbyterian, Beth Israel, Robert Woods Johnson, Hackensack University Medical Center, and Valley Hospital) and was not signifigantly more impressed with any of them (though I have no major complaints either) than I was with the VA system.

Essentially, the care and treatment I received at the VA was comprable to that provided by some of the best private hospitals in my region and the cost of care was much lower.

That's been my experience at least.

I have friends and family who have some real horror stories of care they've received at both VA and private hospitals.

let capitalism work. seems the healthcare system runs the gamut. the isms , vs cost benefit x health metrics. capitalism may seem like " let lose the dogs of war " but I believe , dear friends, there are huge savings w/ in the system,
I preface w/ this question to the well insured anongnst the backdrop of the sometimes abritary nature of wealth/ success
ever wonder why the dr. prescribes ' you ' a tier 3 or 4 low cost generic? and the answer is , that its "cheaper to make."
look again mi brothers...and many times the tier 1 and 2 are superior. your lives hang in the balance. where is anti trust dept of commerce when you need them? do away with this primitive cast system I say. ( tier classification system)

Originally Posted by Hoplite

Proof?

Proof? The statement I made implied a future event. One cannot prove nor disprove an event that has not occured yet. Only that of which has already occured can be proven or disproven.

Money, Greed, When something bad happens follow the trail to money and greed. It will be there sitting in nice clothes at the mansion.

Originally Posted by CowboyTed

Right this has come up time and time again...

Can the idiots of the right show a first world country with a private healthcare model being cheaper than a governement run universal healthcare model?

Just to help you this has come up several times and each time your lies have been beaten back.

So here we are saying stop the repeat lying... This is happening on a contiunual basis...

Get real the US has some very import and successful social programs (and thus is a socialist country just as much ast the rest of us) or did you get work today going cross country or did you use a road, US is in two wars paid for a lovely social program call the defense dept, the police, the firemen....

Now that doesn't mean that government should control or own everything but it means there is a balance.... That balance needs to be stuck... Healthcare is one of them, all empirical data suggests it is cheaper to let the government run it... On France v US number it should over time yield significant savings when you consider that france spends 2/3 per capita on healthcare and have the besty healthcre in the world that gives a high basic level coverage to everyone.

So when you say the government is bad and can't run anything while using a road to get to work, praising the soldiers, police or firemen... I see a hypocrite.

The government can make healthcare as cheap as it wants when it's taxing the shit out inocent citizens. BTW calling other forum members idiots I think is a violation is is not moderator?

Originally Posted by CowboyTed

By the way it is nice to see your now taking on the man not the agruement... I have quoted figures from leading health organizations world wide while you have still to form an arguement for:


Still asking out there. US is running a total healthcare costs about 5% of GDP above the every other country in the world.
Can some one point it out to me a proper size first world country where where a more socialized healthcare system is cheaper then less socialized healthcare system...

Is Goober's answer the one to hold because he is the only one to actually try to put answer together.

The rest have tried to say the quality of the care in US is superior with actual proof but was easilly rebuttaled by showing the the opposite is true.

There was a nice personal attack in there but that just shows that one might be running out of real arguements.

Right Wing Intellectuals, like to call people names, and pretend they have just dissected your argument, while leaving the facts untouched.
They think the highest form of evidence, is relating an anecdote they heard, and actual literature on the topic plays no part in their argument, as it often disproves their argument.

The argument they use is that "European or Canadian style health care wouldn't work here".
But the argument that single payer wouldn't work here is dashed by Medicare, and the idea that government run healthcare wouldn't work here is dashed by the VA.
There is a reason that the more education a person receives, the more likely they are to be a leftist.

It's interesting how you and CowboyTed are trying to restrict the debate to the one issue you want. Does America spend more on healthcare than other nations? Sure. But that's all you want to discuss and that "proves" some point about socialized healthcare systems to you. You don't ask why it spends more on healthcare. Or, on the flip side, why other countries spend less. You guys present "studies" that show that American healthcare performs worse than other countries. Except they turn out to be surveys, not anything quantifiable, and even the surveys are about "equality" and "fairness" of healthcare, not actual quality measures. And you just view things in terms of "America and everyone else." It doesn't interest you that Oman beats out European countries? What's Oman got on Europe? LOL.

See, that's why it's obvious that this isn't actually about healthcare. If you were actually interested in healthcare, you'd say "well, we're beating America ...but Southern Moldova is beating us ...gee, something is strange here. Maybe I should think about this." But you don't think. You just google for "American healthcare the most expensive" or something and start shooting out articles that you cut-and-pasted blindly. That's over 99% of Internet argumentation, or arguing the lazy way.

To soot: I didn't mean to say that you can not have a good experience at a VA hospital. Of course you can, and I'm glad you did. However, VA hospitals most certainly do not provide the best healthcare in America and are generally viewed as providing fairly poor care. I can discuss it via PM if you'd like.

Originally Posted by Invisible-Bob

The government can make healthcare as cheap as it wants when it's taxing the shit out inocent citizens. BTW calling other forum members idiots I think is a violation is is not moderator?

IB,

Please read the posts we have proven time and time again that more socialized healthcare system is cheaper then less socialized healthcare system... The tax thing is infantile at this stage it has been all accounted for.

And the 'idiots' comment was less than what I have been call numerious times before... I forgot that so many can give it but find it exceptionally hard to take it... On this thread I already been told to go away because of my nationality.