Thread: Ron Paul's vision fer old peoples and children...

Originally Posted by adaher

What's "easily saved". No one goes without basic health care, but there are advanced treatments which are a little bit more effective, but not cost effective. An example I often like to cite is proton beam therapy, a superior alternative to traditional chemotherapy. Expensive as hell though. So only the rich or those with gold-plated health plans have access to it. If you're relying on the NHS, you can forget about it, although Britain is FINALLY starting to roll out this technology on a limited basis:

BBC News - UK proton beam therapy trial sites shortlisted

You keep talking about the fact that we can't always afford the ultra expensive stuff and I'd like to shoot that question right back at you.

How many US health plans will pay for ultra expensive procedures like the procedure above without bankrupting all but a small handful of people who can afford to keep being covered after the insurers have jacked up the premiums because you are now a high risk customer?

Originally Posted by PeterUK75

I see healthcare as a basic government function like the Fire Service or Police which I suppose is why I find the US system so strange.

That would be a far saner approach than the PPACA nightmare. You'll notice the above are not federal services. States and local communities decide how to handle them and it works pretty well.

Why can't they just do that then and have each state have a state health system or would that be a bit of a nightmare given how much people move about and how big the US is?

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

ahoy Dblack,

wouldn't it be more fair to say that the application 'o these words, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.", in an civilized and enlightened society hath been a process that hath taken a couple 'o centuries and be still evolvin' as we speak?

yarrrr!

- MeadHallPirate

Sure. Not quite sure what you're getting at though

Originally Posted by dblack

Sure. Not quite sure what you're getting at though

ahoy Dblack,

oh, i was just referrin' to yer salvo that folks hath been havin' thar rights violated fer decades as per them hallowed words 'o 1776, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.".

in many cases, this would be true and it hath taken many years to correct this sad phenomenon.

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by dblack

I never really know how to take this assertion. A political right is a protected freedom - not a guarantee of service. The only way I can take the proposition seriously, is to translate it to: "Health care is a service that should be provided equally to all citizens by government.". I still don't agree, but at least it's a coherent statement.



So, by your interpretation of this, every US citizen who has ever died has had their rights violated, eh?

You are being disingenuous. We all die eventually, but it is a matter of when and why. 'Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' are impossible without your health. So YES, every US citizen who has ever died prematurely because they didn't have access to adequate health care had their rights violated.

Liberty is to the collective body, what health is to every individual body. Without health no pleasure can be tasted by man; without liberty, no happiness can be enjoyed by society.
Thomas Jefferson

Originally Posted by PeterUK75

Why can't they just do that then and have each state have a state health system or would that be a bit of a nightmare given how much people move about and how big the US is?

Because centralized system is easier for the corporates to control.

Originally Posted by dblack

Because centralized system is easier for the corporates to control.

Screw them guys. The US is big enough to not let them control you and decide what healthcare you have. If they don't like it they can bugger off.

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

ahoy Dblack,

oh, i was just referrin' to yer salvo that folks hath been havin' thar rights violated fer decades as per them hallowed words 'o 1776, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.".

in many cases, this would be true and it hath taken many years to correct this sad phenomenon.

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

Yeah. I'm still not sure what you're getting at. I'm not slinging the strict constitutionalist line. I'm just responding the the assertion that asserting 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' as unalienable rights means the health care is a right.

Originally Posted by Bfgrn

You are being disingenuous. We all die eventually, but it is a matter of when and why. 'Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' are impossible without your health. So YES, every US citizen who has ever died prematurely because they didn't have access to adequate health care had their rights violated.

Everyone dies prematurely because they don't have access to adequate health care.

Originally Posted by PeterUK75

Screw them guys. The US is big enough to not let them control you and decide what healthcare you have. If they don't like it they can bugger off.

Exactly. Hopefully the Supreme Court has our back. We'll see.

Originally Posted by dblack

Yeah. I'm still not sure what you're getting at. I'm not slinging the strict constitutionalist line. I'm just responding the the assertion that asserting 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' as unalienable rights means the health care is a right.

ahoy Dblack,

nevermind matey, i guess i just kinda agree with the point Bfgrn be makin'.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by Bfgrn

You keep making claims without any proof.

I keep making claims assuming we have the same set of facts. I'll assume you're referring to Medicare fraud:

This source says Medicare fraud is 3.9%.

Fraud statistics

Which would make Medicare's payout ratio around 92%. not bad. However, other estimates are much, much higher:

Blatant Medicare fraud costs taxpayers billions - Nightly News - msnbc.com

$60 billion higher. Strangely, while there is fraud in the private insurance industry, you don't have criminal networks whose primary purpose is to cheat Cigna. Medicare just too easy to fool.

Were you seriously not aware of Medicare's fraud problem? Do I need to link to basic arithmetic too?

The most shocking part of the story:

A recent report by the inspector general for the Department of Health and Human Services noted that 72 percent of the Medicare claims submitted nationwide for HIV/AIDS treatment in 2005 came from South Florida alone. That percentage is of great concern to authorities, since only eight percent of the country's HIV/AIDS Medicare beneficiaries actually live in South Florida, a clear indication that the level of fraud was, as one official put it, "off the charts."

A private insurance company would never just let that happen. Medicare is doing precisely nothing about this problem other than to make a few show arrests. What they should be doing is checking all claims, but they can't do that, because if they did, it would increase their administrative costs, and you wouldn't be able to claim they were more efficient. It's amazing how efficient you can seem if you just pay out as fast as possible without checking.