Thread: This can't possibly end well..

Originally Posted by michael h

I didn't offer my definition of an organism ... I offered mainstream sciences definition. I'm not attempting to define it. The criteria for an organism has been quoted by me and others and you have quoted it yourself.

Also Chang and CR Austin didn't attempt to offer sperm capacitation as organisms ... merely steps involved in preparation for fertilization.

Fertilization is the step that creates the organism ... and you offered two cells in proximity ... unfertilized ... as an alternative. Read the posts ... there are repeated replies to you on your proximity / marble theory.

Where are these mainstream science definitions which I apparently have not addressed? And please read my edited post before you reply.

Originally Posted by Slon

Where are these mainstream science definitions which I apparently have not addressed? And please read my edited post before you reply.

Here is one you quoted:

Mere human cells, in contrast, are composed of human DNA and other human
molecules, but they show no global organization beyond that intrinsic to cells in
isolation. A human skin cell removed from a mature body and maintained in the
laboratory will continue to live and will divide many times to produce a large mass
of cells, but it will not re-establish the whole organism from which it was removed; it
will not regenerate an entire human body in culture.

At this point you decided to downplay the organization of an organism ... and highlight the contributions of cells.

BTW your reply to what you quoted.

Let's take a look at that excerpt. Now replace "mere human cells" with "mere human sperm and egg cells." In contrast to the skin cells, the sperm and egg cells can theoretically grow (generate) an entire human body. So does that mean that a sperm and egg cell, placed in the same petridish, are two cells of a human being?

This is merely a play for life over organism.

Another play upon life as opposed to the human organism.

Once again, you are wrong. Life does not begin with the zygote. Here is an article written by one of the two people who discovered sperm capacitation:

In the first place human life, as such, obviously begins before fertilization, since the egg or oocyte is alive before sperm entry, as were innumerable antecedent cells, back through the origin of species into the mists of time.

You are completely outgunned. Sorry.

Originally Posted by michael h

Here is one you quoted:

So how is that the mainstream science definition and not just Maureen Condic's opinion that this is the definition of a human organism?

At this point you decided to downplay the organization of an organism ... and highlight the contributions of cells.

BTW your reply to what you quoted.



This is merely a play for life over organism.

This opinion of yours is based on what? Do you feel the sperm/egg combo will never generate an adult human?

Originally Posted by Slon

So how is that the mainstream science definition and not just Maureen Condic's opinion that this is the definition of a human organism?

This opinion of yours is based on what? Do you feel the sperm/egg combo will never generate an adult human?

I never said a sperm egg combo couldn't be an adult human ... I said it wasn't a human organism ... I think its fair to say everyone posting here is aware that IF the sperm fertilizes the egg it could happen.

The fact that humans get their characteristics from sperm and eggs ... is irrelevant if the fertilization is never made.

Do we understand the difference between what MIGHT happen and what DID happen? Fertilization is an example of what DID happen. Proximity is an example of what MIGHT happen.

Originally Posted by michael h

I never said a sperm egg combo couldn't be an adult human ... I said it wasn't a human organism ... I think its fair to say everyone posting here is aware that IF the sperm fertilizes the egg it could happen.

The fact that humans get their characteristics from sperm and eggs ... is irrelevant if the fertilization is never made.

Do we understand the difference between what MIGHT happen and what DID happen? Fertilization is an example of what DID happen. Proximity is an example of what MIGHT happen.

So what makes a zygote a living human organism and a sperm cell and egg cell next to each other some time before fertilization not a living human organism?

Originally Posted by Slon

So what makes a zygote a human organism and a sperm cell and egg cell next to each other some time before fertilization not a human organism?

The same thing that makes a 2 year old a human organism. A two year old MIGHT grow to adulthood ... yet it is an organism with the cellular organization to reach that point of adulthood. As per the quote you found a sperm cell or egg do not contain this ability ... they require fertilization to have the cellular plan.

Originally Posted by michael h

The same thing that makes a 2 year old a human organism. A two year old MIGHT grow to adulthood ... yet it is an organism with the cellular organization to reach that point of adulthood. As per the quote you found a sperm cell or egg do not contain this ability ... they require fertilization to have the cellular plan.

What do you mean by "cellular plan?" A zygote, for example, only has one cell. What is this "plan" you refer to?

Originally Posted by Slon

What do you mean by "cellular plan?" A zygote, for example, only has one cell. What is this "plan" you refer to?

The organization for the cell to become an adult human.

Within the first 30 minutes following sperm-egg fusion, the maternally derived nucleus
completes its final round of meiotic division (Figure 1C), a process initiated by
factors contributed by the sperm.13 Thus, for a brief time, the zygote is a triploid cell,
containing one set of DNA from the sperm and two sets of DNA from the oocyte.
The completion of meiosis in the maternally derived nucleus converts this triploid cell
to a diploid state and establishes the definitive (i.e., final) genome of the zygote.14 By
eliminating half of the maternally contributed DNA, the zygote acts in the interest of
its own subsequent development to establish a genetic state that is dissimilar to that of
gametes and uniquely capable of supporting continued embryonic development.

Following completion of meiosis, the maternally and paternally derived nuclei undergo
rapid structural and chemical changes. Beginning within 30 minutes, protamine
associated with the paternally derived DNA is replaced by histone,15 generating a
“paternal” nucleus that is actually a hybrid of paternally derived DNA and maternally
derived protein (Figure 1C). Substitution of histone for protamine is required
for DNA replication and zygotic transcription, processes that will not commence for
several hours. Thus, modification of the paternal nucleus anticipates the subsequent
steps of zygotic development and can be understood only as part of an ongoing
development that is unique to the zygote and distinct from that of sperm and egg.

A organism can be cloned from cell taken from human being.
Would that organism, which wasn't conceived be human?
It would be able to walk and talk, and think and act human, but since it wasn't conceived, could it be considered human?

Originally Posted by michael h

The organization for the cell to become an adult human.

You're referring to DNA as the plan. Well, that genetic information is present in the sperm and egg cells. After all, it doesn't just get generated from scratch at fertilization.

Originally Posted by goober

A organism can be cloned from cell taken from human being.
Would that organism, which wasn't conceived be human?
It would be able to walk and talk, and think and act human, but since it wasn't conceived, could it be considered human?

My opinion yes. It's a human organism ... and that's one of the things people fear ... creation of humans not being treated as humans. They could be used as body replacements, organ replacements, ...

Originally Posted by Slon

You're referring to DNA as the plan. Well, that genetic information is present in the sperm and egg cells. After all, it doesn't just get generated from scratch at fertilization.

But a sperm and egg cell cannot institute this plan. The zygote can. So while reproductive cells may be the source of the DNA they cannot create an organism without each other. and fertilized. All these things occur as a result of fertilization.