Thread: Health care Facts not opinion.

Originally Posted by Damn Yankee

1. I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.
2. Actually, my ancestors left Europe after the US Civil War, so were involved with neither genocide or slavery. But now that you mention it, slavery was an institution practiced in the US by Democrats. You should read up on the political history of the US starting with the Civil War so you would understand this. This was the time of the Republican Party's birth, and its central issue was civil rights. The Democrats were against this basic human right to the point that they attempted to secede. After we beat the crap out of them they continued their policies against blacks by forming a terrorist wing, the KKK. When we jailed and hung the crap out of the KKK the Democrat Party responded with segregation laws. When we legislated the crap out of segregation they tried to filibuster, but we brought them kicking and screaming into the modern civil rights era. The entire effort took over 100 years, and now you'll hear them make the claim that it was their idea all along. It would be really great if you Europeans would take back these members of the Democrat Party, enemies of freedom, but I don't think you could afford them.

1. So if China or Venezula bought out a Health Insurer in the US you still believe the Coporation are the people. There is a difference between the corporation being treated as a person and the government acting in the interest of the people. Truth is that you are happier to work for or buy from Commuinist China under a corporation than your local Government. You better not be callin yourself a Patriot.

2.So your people opressed the early settlers back in Europe as well and you know that all your ancestors vote Republican since they got off the boat... Amazing... And I think it is great you lecture me about freedom when you can't legally go gamble on a horse and have a drink with a 18 yr old at a bar... All in the knowledge that my goverment is not listening to my conversations or reading my emails...

Do they sell you the crap that they need to violate your freedoms for your own safety?

Originally Posted by soot

Technological innovations have driven costs down in other areas because technological advances have taken the place of laborers and millions of man-hours of labor.

The same doesn't apply to healthcare.

The advances we're talking about don't allow one doctor to care for more people, they allow that one doctor to provide better, more comprehensive care to the same number of people.

Here's a graphic that explains, in part, why the cost of healthcare has increased:

Infant, Neonatal, and Postneonatal Annual Mortality Rates per 1000 Live Births --- United States, 1940--2005

Attachment 13163

The Righties are still stuck on the Market will decide everything idealogy...

Theay are doing this while not answering the basic question.

How much is your daughters life worth?

If you can answer that then you state the insurance needed to protect that life.

Still didn't get an answer to this question from a few weeks ago:

Can you show me a country which heavilly uses Private Medicence insurance model which is cheaper than public... Empirical evidence please....

Originally Posted by USCitizen

I listed a set of facts set before me by NYS physicians and politley asked in return for a set of facts.
If you need a few weeks to get together with your physician friends and ask them specific question I have no problem waiting.

Post 59.

Originally Posted by CowboyTed

1. So if China or Venezula bought out a Health Insurer in the US you still believe the Coporation are the people. There is a difference between the corporation being treated as a person and the government acting in the interest of the people. Truth is that you are happier to work for or buy from Commuinist China under a corporation than your local Government. You better not be callin yourself a Patriot.

2.So your people opressed the early settlers back in Europe as well and you know that all your ancestors vote Republican since they got off the boat... Amazing... And I think it is great you lecture me about freedom when you can't legally go gamble on a horse and have a drink with a 18 yr old at a bar... All in the knowledge that my goverment is not listening to my conversations or reading my emails...

Do they sell you the crap that they need to violate your freedoms for your own safety?

1. If a foreign corporation wanted to provide insurance to US citizens I'd have no problem with that. Lots of people work for foreign corporations, many of them are Patriots.
2. So you know my ancestor's European history? Amazing. You should tell me more. On the German side I've got it back to 1683 so I'd like to hear about all the conquests as it will greatly amuse me. I can't wait to be guilty for the perceived sins of folks that I've never met.
3. Did my American ancestors all vote Republican? Based on where they settled and their work ethic, probably. My parents and grandparents certainly were, and like them I've instilled my ethics to my children, so it is likely that my ancestors did the same. Regardless, your previous accusation is unfounded.
4. I gave you the opportunity to repeat this crap and you didn't disappoint me. Gambling and drinking laws are by state in the US. I can buy a rifle or a shotgun at a local gun shop or sporting goods store, including an AR-15 knock-off, with no waiting, no permit. I can buy a pistol at a local gun shop after obtaining a purchase permit from my sheriff, which takes three days and costs $5. After I buy the pistol there is no permit required. I own 3 rifles, two pistols, and a shotgun. The DMV sells pepper spray, or I can buy it at Walmart. Perhaps you need to learn more.

Originally Posted by Damn Yankee

Post 59.

They're not complaining about reams of different paperwork per company, horribly high co-pays, medications being knocked off the list?

Originally Posted by USCitizen

They're not complaining about reams of different paperwork per company, horribly high co-pays, medications being knocked off the list?

Of course they are. But the solution is a more competitive insurance industry, which means less government, not more government.

Originally Posted by Damn Yankee

Of course they are. But the solution is a more competitive insurance industry, which means less government, not more government.

Seems the solution lies in what other civilized nations are doing. Unless you think that a no profit system costs more overall than a for profit system. See, when you have insurance companies that are designed to make a profit, the profits they make will add costs, no matter how competitive they are. Not only must they meet overhead, but they must make a profit,and the more profit the better.

Being a liberal as I am, it just seems nonsensical that something like health insurance should be run as a for profit system, given the fact that healthcare costs continue to grow faster than anything else and is trending into the stratosphere. If a society decides that all should have health insurance, so that they can obtain medical care the logical thing to do is to create a system that takes the profit out of the insurance part of that system. And if we decide health insurance will be a luxury for only some of the people who can afford it, the "for profit" insurance is the only way to go.

When you move into the area of covering everyone, and a substantial percentage of people cannot afford to buy it, you have to get rid of the profits and totally change the system. You can no longer treat insurance as you would treat a consumer good or service supplied by the private sector. Instead it would be treated like a military used to protect the nation, or a police force used to protect a community. We do not have private companies providing these services to our citizens. One must change the way in which we view insurance and of course many people, mostly of the republican bent, don't want this. They think it is fine to protect the american people from other people, but not from germs and illnesses. We just need to expand what we want to protect our citizens from. Germs, viruses and illnesses are a much larger danger than foreign enemies or criminals. The motto of a single payer national health insurance could rightly be called, "to protect and to serve". Plus we could then join in with the rest of the civilized western world. And do the right, moral, and noble thing in the process. It would not be too much to ask from a supposed christian nation.

And along with imposing our will upon other people we deem as enemies, we could impose our will upon germs, viruses, injuries and illnesses. While it would not make for a great video game as war and police work does, but we would still be killing something! And apparently most humans like to kill things. We are so damn good at it. Experts you could say.

Originally Posted by CowboyTed

How much is your daughters life worth?

You mean in terms of your money?

Originally Posted by Damn Yankee

...



This is a classic, but tired, straw man tactic. When did I say "no regulation"? In fact I said something quite different. Let me remind you:

And of course, we are talking about insurance, not the medical profession itself, which is adequately regulated.

So where is the free market health care system that is working?
Where is the free market health care system that is providing high quality low cost care, better and cheaper than government run systems provide?
And if you just want to limit the discussion to insurance, the health insurance in the US with the lowest overhead is Medicare.

And before regulations, insurance companies used to collect premiums, and sometimes pay claims, and sometimes not.
The government didn't jump into a functioning insurance market and screw it all up, it entered an insurance market that was rife with fraud(due to the public demanding that it do something) , and cleaned it up.

Originally Posted by goober

So where is the free market health care system that is working?
Where is the free market health care system that is providing high quality low cost care, better and cheaper than government run systems provide?
And if you just want to limit the discussion to insurance, the health insurance in the US with the lowest overhead is Medicare.

And before regulations, insurance companies used to collect premiums, and sometimes pay claims, and sometimes not.
The government didn't jump into a functioning insurance market and screw it all up, it entered an insurance market that was rife with fraud(due to the public demanding that it do something) , and cleaned it up.

But that fraud was part of the free market! How dare you touch the free market. It works best when you keep our filthy hands off of it. The FREE market really means you can do any damn thing you want to! That is the conservative idea of freedom.

The fact is we don't have "health" care. We mainly have "sickness" care. We don't have much prevention, but instead just have early detection.

Genetics and personal choices are the key factors. We can't do much about our genetics, but we can make better lifestyle choices.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

But that fraud was part of the free market! How dare you touch the free market. It works best when you keep our filthy hands off of it. The FREE market really means you can do any damn thing you want to! That is the conservative idea of freedom.

You mean the free market that allowed the local radiologist to charge for 6 x-rays when he only did 2 and that made him enough money during the bubble to build the biggest mansion in town?
Oh yeah, that free market.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

But that fraud was part of the free market! How dare you touch the free market. It works best when you keep our filthy hands off of it. The FREE market really means you can do any damn thing you want to! That is the conservative idea of freedom.

IMO the only way one can describe our society of today is that it has become overwhelmed with some form of madness !

"Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious"