i stated the time of the poll. it was taken during a month long period from feb. to march. i dont think the 'last few days' have been comparably worse than the time of the poll or the two years preceding it.

obviously any one can conclude that 50% of Iraqis answered worse or much worse. i was simply stating that 50% believing life is better DESPITE the ongoing conflict is remarkable and defeats your simplistic generalization of "look at what america did to the iraqis"

this was in response to...

Originally Posted by htperr6565
thats exactly what i was referring to. the manner in which the Soviets repelled that rebellion. where is a comparable instance of American brutality towards civilians during the cold war?

so you brought up abortion

i wasnt aware thousands of civilians of another country were murdered in that event... interesting...

That incident took place in El Salvador. Which, incidentally, is not Nicargua.

The repression of the Bonus Army ocurred in 1932, the discussion here is events during the Cold War, which started 15 years later.

This might seem like nitpicking, but you're not helping your case overly much by fucking up simple things like dates and locations.

You didn't mention 'another' country, you asked for A country. So you are in agreement with what was done to the Bonus Marchers? Or at least that it was not something worth mentioning as it was done to your OWN?

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

I am well aware when the Bonus March took place. I am also well aware that McArthur, Patton and Eisenhower were in charge of the troops. I am well aware that McArthur ignored orders which is why so many died. We have gone through that in an earlier thread.

My point, and obviously it is too subtle for some on this Board, was that if your OWN isn't treated with care and honesty, you can't hold yourselves up as the arbitor of all that is fine and honourable in dealing with other countries. It is a sickening and erroneous stance.

As for the American nuns raped and murdered by American trained and armed Contras, do you feel that because I made a mistake in which country it occurred, that my whole argument then falls in a heap? To my mind the petty details are only of concern to Wikipedia type people. I agree that sometimes dates and times do have their part to play. However, I am of the opinion that analysing, interpreting and making connections is much more important.

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

Well, that is your 'opinion' and you are entitled to it, however, most of the media, including the mainstream is calling it the 'worst' so far!

My dear, it isn't just MY 'simplistic' and generalised viewpoint!

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

Fair enough. However, are you saying that denying a woman's right to choose isn't a form of brutality? You didn't mention the stem-cell research or the gay marriage question. Don't you consider those two matters important enough?

Oh! and also the inhumane way US citizens were treated during the AIDS epidemic in the 80s. The religious right had such an influence with Raygun that he chose to ignore it rather than address the best ways to tackle the problem.

I should really start a thread, something along the lines of "What do you think is the most appalling action taking by the US government against its own citizenry?"

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

Given that the origin of this discusssion between us involved the question of whether or not soviet and u.s. actions during the cold war were comparable, and given that this event was not during the cold war, and in no way is comparable to the gulag and programmed famines of the soviets, i see little relevance in your bringing this up.

it was a sad event, and was wrong on behalf of the us, but not really relevant to our discussion. i never said the us government cant make mistakes.

would any of those actions be in the ballpark of comparability with the gulag?

denying a woman's right to choose is in no comparable with soviet physical brutality against it own citizens.

with all do respect, the 'mainstream media' is just that: generalised and simplistic, you call also throw in short-sighted, poor analytical skills or even none at all, no concept of context or history, sensationalist, ratings-driven, negative, you could go on.

point being, the very fact that the media is calling this war the 'worst' so far proves all of that. this war is worse than the soviet occpuation of afghanistan? worse than the iraq/iran war? all they are basically saying is that this current war is the worst war that is going on right now, which aint saying much. the media is never comparative. it always looks at the present through the eyes of the present. it puts today in a fantasy vacuum for us which is devoid of reality.

so i would be careful about validating with my points with 'the media said so' if you want someone to take you seriously...

Well, now that you have got that off your chest would you please go back to my post and read it again? I said 'including the mainstream'. I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the mainstream media. After all it was that scummy mob who were 'told' to 'sell the war'.

I'd be careful though, if I were you, you will find that many Bush barrackers live by Limbaugh and Fox News. It's so comforting for them, never requires them to think for themselves. They don't like people pointing out how nebulous, even ephemeral, their 'safe' constructs actually are!

I also find it amusing that you refer to Afghanistan the very embodiment of a genesis as far as Al Qaeda is concerned. I am also bewildered as the USSR was actually asked to intervene by the government of Afghanistan at the time*. Where is Bush's invite into Iraq? Oh! that's right Chalabi still has it in his pocket!

Yes, yes, it may have been a spurious invitation but it was an invitation nonetheless.

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

What is this with eschewing capital letters at the start of a paragraph? I've noticed Imperator does it too.

Did you go to the same school?

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

enigma2, with all due respect, what - if anything - did the US do right during the Cold War in your opinion? The problems/disasters/crimes that took place are grits for the mill, but will you not acknowledge any positive effects of US policys?

Regards

An invitation from a revolutionary government that was destroying cultural customs of a region and persecuting any opposition does not exactly make a war of occupation legitimate.

One could say we are in Iraq at the invitation of the current adminstration! one which is arguably more legitamte than sadam huesseins... and more progressive and liberal...