I hadn't read the above until now.

You are viewing the capitalist elite as monolithic! Thank goodness for the rest of the world that this is not the case. At the moment, one faction has control of the government and is forcefully pushing its agenda through that entity. Perhaps the other 4% of the capitalist elite are on the outer with the 1% in control.

On the other hand, perhaps Zinn is wrong.

Don't be so ready to spurn information before truly analysing it.

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

First off, who's holding up anyone as being an arbiter? I'm certainly not, at least not in this argument. I think when discussing the Cold War, all you really have to consider is that there were three possible outcomes, there could have been a global war in which much of humanity would have been wiped out, clearly, that wouldn't be good for anyone. Or, it could end the way it did, with a world in which the US was significantly stronger than all of its other competitors. Or, the US could have declined to contest the USSR, and we would have ended up with a world in which the USSR was significantly stronger than all its other competitors. When I see those options, it's not really a contest to me which one was preferable. But, perhaps you believe that World War III or a world in which the USSR was global hegemon would have been preferable outcomes. If so, why is that?

Secondly,are you contending that nation-states have no right to comment on the behavior of other nation-states, however hideously they treat their own people or their neighbors unless the nation-states doing the commentary have impeccable records themselves? If so, could you point me to such a nation-state? Because I don't believe it exists.

Lastly, why does not being perfect somehow translate into having no right to comment or even attempting to change the behavior of other nation-states? Does it really make much sense to you to say something along the lines of 'well, sure there's been at least 300,000 people killed and at least another million made refugees in Darfur, but y'know, the US had slavery 160 years ago, so really, what right do I have to comment on that'? That's an attitude I would call quietism.

No, I feel the fact that you assert basic factual errors as if they're true and then say in effect 'it doesn't matter that I fuck up simple facts because I'm right on the big picture', demonstrates that you're not thinking particularly carefully about why you believe what you believe, and that you just take whatever it is that fits with your preconceptions and deciding it must be accurate because it reinforces what you believe.

And by the way, you're doing it again. The term contras specifically refers to the Nicaraguan forces fighting the Sandinistas. They had nothing to do with Salvador.

I highly disagree. Fucking up the small details inevitably leads to fucking up the big details.

I would agree. How unfortunate that you don't seem to be capable of doing it. You're actually doing more or less what you're accusing me of doing by being so concerened with 'petty details'. You're not analyzing or interpreting a damned thing; you're taking a list of specific injustices, stringing them together (unrelated), and claiming they represent the big picture while making no effort to explain why, apparently you just find it to be so self-obvious that any sound minded individual should be able to see it.

Peaceful coexistence could have been the fourth option. Unfortunately, just like yourself, the US and its client states never considered it as an option!!

As for contras you are right. In the case of the brutal rape and murder of the nuns, I should have referred to the perpetrators as American trained and financed 'death squads'!

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

Why do you feel a need to call them "American trained and financed"?

How is that relevant?

Are you just desperately trying to connect the "rape" to "America"?

Do you think the USA actually trained them how to rape and/or condoned the rape?

Could you elaborate?

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... ..................
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There's a running flaw in your arguments here; you seem to believe all causality in the world emanates from Washington. You've reduced the USSR to an essentially reactive role with no agenda of their own; why is that? What evidence do you base your idea that peaceful coexistence was ever a realistic option, even had the US desired it (which at least FDR most certainly did)?

You could. And we'd still be no closer to actually getting anywhere near a serious discussion about American policy during the Salvadoran civil war (you're aware of course, that we actually spent $8 million in the 1984 Salvadoran elections to make sure ARENA didn't win?).

By the way, given that you refused to directly answer pretty much all of my contentions, I'm guessing you have no coherent response.

I answered the one point which I thought of any consequence. The rest was merely weak justification for the unjustifiable.

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

For your information, the Catholic Church has named the US government of the time (your hero, Raygun) as being responsible. Go and argue with them.

Learn something about your government's actions, Hairball.

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

Well, hairball, if the catholic church said it, we really have no choice but to blindly swallow it. that is the catholic way, after all.

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Anyone with a vision needs to see an eye doctor. -Helmut Schmidt.

"Mrs. Palin, which specific journals and news sources do you read? (after being asked once)"

"Oh, All of them!"

6565, I'm surprised that you have chosen to attack the Catholich Church without addressing the substance of their statement.

The fact that the nuns were all 'born in the USA' would, to my mind, make it of even more interest to you and hairball. However, if you are merely going to sling off then there is no point in continuing.

Open up your minds to the fact that the USA very rarely did much during the Cold War that was admirable. People were assassinated, reputations were destroyed, countries were annexed.

Grow up!

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

there, why not just say that? a rational assertion, enigma. much better than 'the pope said so'
because, if were going to evaluate the admirability of institutions, the catholic church has had some dark moments as well. its like me expecting you to be pro- continuation of the iraq war simply because bush has given it his good graces.

the real question, given what you stated about annexations, assasinations, repuations (during the cold war) being destroyed, is... why?

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Anyone with a vision needs to see an eye doctor. -Helmut Schmidt.

"Mrs. Palin, which specific journals and news sources do you read? (after being asked once)"

"Oh, All of them!"

6565, I don't think I have been patronised with such little reason for being treated so!

As for the 'why', that is something that hasn't been acknowledged as yet by either side. I do have my own simple explanation, however, I am not sure that you have the understanding, objectivity or analytical skills to comprehend it.

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

well i think i can do my best, oh wise one...

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Anyone with a vision needs to see an eye doctor. -Helmut Schmidt.

"Mrs. Palin, which specific journals and news sources do you read? (after being asked once)"

"Oh, All of them!"

6565, it has nothing to do with being 'wise'. It has everything to do with having an open mind and of approaching a question with, at least, an understanding of the other person's worldview. For example, the other day I read a post of JP's on the 'welcome' thread. I have a certain liking for the man, although, at times,he can be exasperating. Unfortunately, his approach and understanding was so different to mine that it would take a lot of 'face to face' work to even reach an agreement to disagree.

I don't intend to go into such a deep and complex subject as the Cold War on this board with all that that entails. You are only studying it, *I* lived through it and the harm that period did to myself, my extended family, friends, acquaintances and the people of this planet should not be taken lightly. I will admit to having a great deal of trouble with an objective attitude towards that time.

Unfortunately,we are all still suffering the aftershocks.

I didn't come here, as you have stated - to change people's minds. I find that beyond my small talents. I have come here to find 'common ground' and a sense that we are all inhabiting this beautiful planet and should show our appreciation of that by doing the best we can to preserve it. I have been taught to not bother with what may divide us, but to look to what unites us.

It is obvious that you have come here to have a more confrontational experience.

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

Perhaps you still do not understand the difference between the way men and women think.

Truth and facts are not things you find through arbitratration. "Common ground" has nothing to do with it.

Truth and facts are found through logical reasoning.

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... ..................
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Don't try and dumb down my words by bringing out that sort of gender piffle! For a start, many on this board were not aware I was a woman until I told them so. Go back and read what I actually said.

There may be topics which 6565 and I can agree on, but in discussing the Cold War, on first impression, it is very unlikely that we would. I do not intend to wrangle on about 'yes, you did'; 'no we didn't!'. I have mentioned an incident which occurred in the Raygun era, and already that is being disputed. To even begin to understand the Cold War era, in my opinion, one would have to start from the Industrial Revolution.

As for your assertion that 'truth and facts are found through logical reasoning', I have yet to see that talent expressed in any of your posts so far! A lot of your posts, Hairball, seem to consist of 'my team's better than yours'!

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil