And not some profoundly arcane mystery, eh?

You'd think that at least one of the President's advisors would have some semblance of acumen pertaining to world history.

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

The sad part is, Bush wants control over Iraq so badly that he will go to any lengths. This is why Bush doesn't want to let go. He's keeping his eyes on the "prize" even in knowing that he is wrong. He will do anything at any cost. Greed and selfishness is one of the most dangerous, blinding things.

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Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

- George Orwell, 1984

It may be that they feel it's necessary to keep our forces in the region irrespective of the situation in Iraq. What with the recent transfer of power in Saudi Arabia, I expect they're concerned re the continued flow of oil at satisfactory production levels, and where else are they going to station a contingency force?

I think they realize that what they'd hoped for isn't likely to come into being, but there are other considerations aside from Iraq becoming a compliant Western proxy state.

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

Provided that the destruction of assets Blix mentioned
were fully verified, my statement would be incorrect.

However, Blix leaves no doubt on the fundamental matter
of unconditional cooperation, namely, that it had never
been forthcoming, and was not yet so, this after 12 years,
and now in face of pending invasion. If Saddam was not
going to throw in the towel under such circumstances, then
the most reasonable assumption is that he never would have.

__________________
From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord, deliver us.

Is there some break in continuity in Saudi policy
that I do not know about? 75% of the Saudi Arabia
welfare state government revenue comes from oil,
and they need us worse than we need them.

As long as terror and sectarian violence haunt Iraq,
that place is never going to be a reliable supplier,
and I expect we are framing our policy so as not
to depend on anything from it in the forseeable future.




The main consideration is the possibility of complete
disorder in Iraq if we pull out. We have no practical
reason that I can think of for being there. For example,
the security of the Persian Gulf can be maintained by
forces afloat, and based elsewhere, such as Kuwait.

__________________
From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord, deliver us.

I missed this crap before.

Comments:

I have already delved into the one and only linked source
you have provided. My response was in post #99, page #7
of this thread. To save you the trouble of scrolling around
I will quote the relevant section:



Provide your own supporting citations and quotes,
if you don't mind.




This is the first case in three years of posting on political boards
that anyone has suggsted I slog through a 300+ page tome. It
ain't gonna happen. Link me to it, provide me with citations from
it, and I may scrutinize them for fact, logic, and clarity- a few
areas you could stand to improve on in general yourself.




Political shenanigans vis a vis Saudi oil have been a constant
of the US landscape at least since we became an importer of
oil back in the early 1970s. Since we did not take steps to overthrow
any oil exporting government until 2003, these shenanigans provide
no evidence that the invasion was motivated by oil supplies.
Furthermore, I thought Iraq's own entry to the market was too
controlled and restricted to allow it to cause major disruption in
supply and price. The quote above from Baker's report supports this.




Every historian I have ever read has provided up to a dozen
or so pages of bibliography. You have provided exactly one
linked source.




I am always happy to have a chance to further my education.
Judging from your contributions in thsi thread I sincerely doubt
you are ever going to be any help.




Humbug.

__________________
From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord, deliver us.

What are you talking about? The destruction of proscribed assets Blix outlines in the briefing was carried out under UNMOVIC supervision. Furthermore, Blix does not say that Iraq's cooperation remained conditional; to the contrary, he states that while Iraq did try to attach conditions in some instances, they relented and allowed the inspectors to proceed unhindered.

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

Politics, as do many words, has several definitions: I used the word to indicate Machiavelian intrigue.



I find myself wondering if someone put Tenet up to that performance. He knew perfectly well that there was uncertainty re WMD in Iraq and he knew that the administration was actively involved in collecting and analyzing Intelligence, which brings up another of the Bush administration's lies: blaming the CIA for providing faulty Intelligence, when the truth of the matter is that the Bush administration willfully skewed the National Intelligence Estimate for Iraq so as to give the impression that Iraq had an up and running WMD program.



As you note below, Iraq has all of about 50 years of history as a national entity, which doesn't stack up very well against the examples you're citing.

But regardless, I say that freedom can't be given because it only comes into being when it is excercised, and that is something one cannot do for another.



Absolute rubbish. Saddam was what held that nation together and it was the responsibility of those taking on the grandiose mantle of liberators to see to it that they were prepared to provide security in the aftermath of his downfall. Anyone who feels that's too much to ask has no business pretending to be a liberator.

This gross irresponsibility has cost many thousands their lives and as far as I'm concerned, it is a crime against humanity that approaches the magnitude of genocide.



Only a fool, IMO, could fail to grasp that the aftermath of Saddam's downfall would present inordinate difficulties requiring tremendous wherewithal; or, the administration simply didn't care -- or perhaps both.

BTW, haven't you heard of the Balkans and what ensued after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

OK for now.




If so, when? This contradicts Blix's other statement:
"cannot be constued as immediate cooperation"
which you said from what you said was Blix's last report
(on 3/13/03) before the 3/20/03 invasion.

__________________
From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord, deliver us.

Since Machiavelli advocated polity in which the ruler's power
was absolute I do not think it provides more than a colloquial
description for the way US politics are conducted.




Without a confirming primary source this is conjecture.
The expression he used can only mean he felt there was
no significant doubt.




Collecting and analyzing intelligence of this sort was more
Tenet's job than everyone else put together.




If the Tenet quote is accurate, then the administration's
blaming the CIA is the plain truth. As for the NIE, it included
CIA input, didn't it? Did the rest of the CIA take a position
opposing that of its own Director?




What is now the state on India never had either.
The southern third or so of the subcontinent, known
as the "Deccan" was for most of its existence independent
of the northern 2/3 prior to the colonial era.

The Philippines were never a national entity prior to the
colonial era either.




It was given to India and the PI with reasonable immediate
success compared to Iraq. As far as Iraq goes, leaving the
Baathists in power post 3/20/03 would have caused an international
uproar. This uproar would have included my voice, and I suspect
yours as well. So would any other alternative to introduction of a
freely elected government.



Rubbish your damn self: Saddam was exactly what I said
he was- one of the world's worst tyrants. And the primary
responsibility for one's security is always one's self.




It is the terrorists who bear the responsibility for the crimes
you mention. The non-terrorist elements are too busy
squabbling to present a united front against their own enemies.




Opinions are like certain orifices, and yours stink.

I am still waiting, though, for the identitfication of anyone
who accurately predicted present conditions in Iraq. Anyone
who got that right should be our next Secretary of State at least.




Yes in both cases: the Balkans erupted into ethnic violence
which was quelled by international force acting with international
consensus. The states arising from the carcass of the vastly
larger USSR have not fired a shot at each other. What's the point?

__________________
From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord, deliver us.

Within a week of that particular briefing.

Again, the reason Blix notes that the cooperation couldn't be characterized as immediate is because it wasn't provided from the get-go.

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

So far as I know, Tenet has never confirmed this story but let's say it's true: "slam dunk case", IMO, does not imply certainty with respect to Iraq having WMD, but rather, that it's a good enough case to present to Congress, the American public and the world at large. And according to Woodward, Tenet made this statement in response to Bush being less than impressed with Tenet's presentation of the best Intelligence he had available showing Iraq to have WMD -- "The presentation was a flop".

Woodward Shares War Secrets, Journalist Describes Secret Details On White House's Plans For War - CBS News


It should be noted that Richard Dearlove, who stated in the Downing Street Memo that "the intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy", was without question in a position to know, as he was head of MI-6 at the time and had just returned from Washington, having consulted with, among others, George Tenet. I think it can be said with a great deal of certainty that what Dearlove knew, Tenet knew as well.

There were/are many dissenting voices in the Intelligence community that were squelched in the runup to the war -- Ray McGovern's is but one.

AlterNet: Bush Fixed the Facts

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

ok fine Columbus saild the earth to prove it was round...??



Please, it sounds like you doubt the people whom lived before us and there documentation skills because you feel you are a brighter light then they are.



yes they were really dumb people 2500 years ago....they were retards.

evolution is a really fast process. ha


Question?

If you survived a plane crash in the backwoods of Guatamala and you left the plane to find help but you found a backwoods tribe would you view the people there as retarted like you make the people of our past seem?

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America’s political correctness is a disease that will bring down our once fine nation.