"Holocaust" numbers - Page 2 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

metalted · #16 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

.....................The History Place - Holocaust Statistics holocaust statistics.

Quote:

The Holocaust was geographically widespread and systematically conducted in virtually all areas of Nazi-occupied territory, where victims were targeted in what are now 35 separate European countries, and sent to labor camps in some countries or extermination camps in others.[12] The mass killing was at its worst in Central and Eastern Europe, which had more than 7 million Jews in 1939; about 5 million Jews were killed there, including 3 million in occupied Poland and over 1 million in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of thousands also died in the Netherlands, France, Belgium, Yugoslavia, and Greece.
Documented evidence suggests that the Nazis planned to carry out their "final solution" in other regions if they were conquered, such as the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland.[13] The extermination continued in different parts of Nazi-controlled territory until the end of World War II, only completely ending when the Allies entered Germany itself and forced the Nazis to surrender in May 1945.

At the Auschwitz concentration camp, Dr. Josef Mengele was infamous for carrying out medical experiments on human subjects. These included placing subjects in pressure chambers, testing various drugs on them, freezing them to death, and various other usually fatal traumas. Of particular interest to Mengele were twins, Gypsies, dwarves and infants.[23] Beginning in 1943, twins were selected and placed in special barracks.[24]
Almost all of Mengele's experiments were of little scientific value, including attempts to change eye color by injecting chemicals into children's eyes, various amputations and other brutal surgeries, and in at least one case attempting to surgically transform normal twins into Siamese twins.[25]
The full extent of Mengele's work will never be known because the two truckloads of records he sent to Dr. Otmar von Verschuer at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute were destroyed by the latter. Subjects who survived Mengele's experiments were almost always killed after the experiments for dissection.
While Mengele's experiments were the most notorious, his behavior was not an isolated aberration. Other Nazi physicians also engaged in human experimentation at several concentration camps, including Dachau[26], Buchenwald[27], Ravensbrück[28], Sachsenhausen[29], and Natzweiler concentration camps.[30]

The exact number of people killed by the Nazi regime may never be known, but scholars, using a variety of methods, including documentation from the Nazis of determining the death toll, have generally agreed upon common range of the number of victims. Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed.[33] The following estimates provide a range of the number of victims:
An estimated 5 to 6 million Jews,[34] including 3 million Polish Jews
1.8 – 1.9 million Christian Poles and other (non-Jewish) Poles (estimate includes civilians killed as a result of Nazi aggression and occupation but does not include the military casualties of Nazi aggression or the victims of the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia)[35]
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
80,000-200,000 European Freemasons [36]
100,000 communists
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[37]

Raul Hilberg, in the third edition of his ground-breaking three-volume work, The Destruction of the European Jews, estimates that 5.1 million Jews died during the Holocaust. This figure includes "over 800,000" who died from "Ghettoization and general privation"; 1,400,000 who were killed in "Open-air shootings"; and "up to 2,900,000" who perished in camps. Hilberg estimates the death toll in Poland at "up to 3,000,000".[38] Hilberg's numbers are generally considered to be a conservative estimate, as they generally include only those deaths for which some records are available, avoiding statistical adjustment.[39] British historian Martin Gilbert used a similar approach in his Atlas of the Holocaust, but arrived at a number of 5.75 million Jewish victims, since he estimated higher numbers of Jews killed in Russia and other locations.[40]

Map titled "Jewish Executions Carried Out by Einsatzgruppe A" from the December 1941 Jäger Report by the commander of a Nazi death squad. Marked "Secret Reich Matter," the map shows the number of Jews shot in the Baltic region, and reads at the bottom: "the estimated number of Jews still on hand is 128,000". Estonia is marked as judenfrei ("free of Jews").
Lucy S. Dawidowicz used pre-war census figures to estimate that 5.934 million Jews died. Using official census counts may cause an underestimate since many births and deaths were not recorded in small towns and villages. Another reason some consider her estimate too low is that many records were destroyed during the war. Her listing of deaths by country of origin is available in the article about her book, The War Against the Jews.[41]
One of the most authoritative German scholars of the Holocaust, Prof. Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin, cites between 5.3 and 6.2 million Jews killed in Dimension des Volksmords (1991), while Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett estimate between 5.59 and 5.86 million Jewish victims in the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust (1990).[42]
The following groups of people were also killed by the Nazi regime, but there is little evidence[citation needed] that the Nazis planned to systematically target them for genocide as was the case for the groups above.
3.5–6 million other Slavic civilians
2.5–4 million Soviet POWs
1–1.5 million political dissidents
Additionally, the Ustaša regime, the Nazis' allies in Croatia, conducted its own campaign of mass extermination against the Serbs in the areas which it controlled, resulting in the deaths of 500,000–1.2 million Serbs.
The summary of various sources' estimates on the number of Nazi regime victims is given in Matthew White's online atlas of 20th century history.

itially after World War II, there were millions of members of families broken up by the war or the Holocaust searching for some record of the fate and/or whereabouts of their missing friends and relatives. These efforts became much less intense as the years went by. More recently, however, there has a been a resurgence of interest by descendants of Holocaust survivors in researching the fates of their lost relatives. Yad Vashem provides a searchable database of three million names, about half of the known direct Jewish victims. Yad Vashem's Central Database of Shoah Victims Names is searchable over the Internet at yadvashem.org or in person at the Yad Vashem complex in Israel.
Other databases and lists of victims' names, some searchable over the Web, are listed in Holocaust (resources).

Main article: Holocaust denial
Holocaust denial is the assertion that the Holocaust did not occur, or that far fewer than six million Jews were killed by the Nazis; that there never was a centrally planned attempt to exterminate the Jews; or that there were no mass killings at the extermination camps. Those who hold this position often claim that Jews or Zionists know that the Holocaust did not occur and are engaged in a conspiracy to further their political agenda. As the Holocaust is considered by historians to be one of the most documented events in recent history, these views are not accepted as credible, with organizations such as the American Historical Association stating that Holocaust denial is "at best, a form of academic fraud."[100] Public espousal of Holocaust denial is a crime in ten European countries, including France, Poland, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, Romania, and Germany.
Holocaust deniers often prefer to be called Holocaust "revisionists." Most scholars contend that the term is misleading. Historical revisionism is a mainstream part of the study of history; it is the reexamination of accepted history, with an eye towards updating it. In contrast, negationists may willfully misuse historical records; as Gordon McFee writes: "Revisionists depart from the conclusion that the Holocaust did not occur and work backwards through the facts to adapt them to that preordained conclusion. Put another way, they reverse the proper methodology ... thus turning the proper historical method of investigation and analysis on its head." [101] Public Opinion Quarterly summarized that: "No reputable historian questions the reality of the Holocaust, and those promoting Holocaust denial are overwhelmingly anti-Semites and/or neo-Nazis."
Holocaust denial has become popular among Muslim opponents of Israel. The doctoral dissertation of Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian National Authority since 2005, raised doubts that gas chambers were used for the extermination of Jews and suggested that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was less than a million. [102][103] Abbas has not espoused this position since his appointment as Palestinian Prime Minister in 2003, and has denied being a Holocaust denier. In late 2005 Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad described the Holocaust as "the myth of the Jews' massacre." [104][105] An underlying reason for the increase of this view among Israel critics is that the legitimacy of Israel as a state is seen as associated to the persecution of Jews over the centuries, and more particularly, to the Nazi Holocaust. Therefore, challenging the very existence of the Holocaust would also question the legitimacy of the creation of the State of Israel.

The Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

there you go....

Richard Osborne · #17 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Death to Zionism.

Neturei Karta: Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism
Jews Against Zionism: True Torah Jews Against Zionism

Backstreet Girl · #18 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

If you figure that around 54 million people were killed during the war that comes out to one death every 3.2 seconds.

Actually, the Nazis killed 11 Million people.... 6 million were Jews, 5 million were Catholics, Gypsies and Homosexuals, with the odd member of the intelligensia thrown in for good measure.

Thing is, they kept amazing records.... every person sent to a work camp; every person sent to a death camp; every person "selected"; every perverse "experiement" was meticulously recorded.

Frank · #19 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Quote:

Main article: Holocaust denial Holocaust denial is the assertion that the Holocaust did not occur, or that far fewer than six million Jews were killed by the Nazis; that there never was a centrally planned attempt to exterminate the Jews; or that there were no mass killings at the extermination camps.

This is a non-sequitur! How does questioning the number of people killed in a certain event translate into denial of the event itself?

Frank · #20 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backstreet Girl

Actually, the Nazis killed 11 Million people.... 6 million were Jews, 5 million were Catholics, Gypsies and Homosexuals, with the odd member of the intelligensia thrown in for good measure.

Thing is, they kept amazing records.... every person sent to a work camp; every person sent to a death camp; every person "selected"; every perverse "experiement" was meticulously recorded.

How can one determine that 6 million Jews were killed when the final death tolls at the primary purported extermination are unknown?

Death toll

Auschwitz concentration camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The exact number of victims at Auschwitz is impossible to fix with certainty. Since the Nazis destroyed a number of records, immediate efforts to count the dead depended on the testimony of witnesses and the defendants on trial at Nuremberg. Nazi Rudolf Höß said that between 2.5 and 3 million had been killed, while Adolf Eichmann gave a figure of 2 million.[7] The Auschwitz Death Book, recently uncovered in Soviet archives, is an example of logged records, but other examples of collected figures are scarce.[citation needed]

Communist Soviet and Polish authorities maintained a figure "between 2.5 and 4 million",[2] which was used on the original Auschwitz memorial.

In 1983, French scholar George Wellers was one of the first to use Nazi data on deportations to estimate the number killed at Auschwitz, arriving at 1.613 million dead, including 1.44 million Jews and 146,000 Catholic Poles. A larger study started around the same time by Franciszek Piper used time tables of train arrivals combined with deportation records to calculate 1.1 million Jewish deaths and 140,000-150,000 Catholic Polish victims, along with 23,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies). This number has met with "significant, though not complete" agreement among scholars. Additionally, large numbers of homosexual people and Jehovah's Witnesses were killed at Auschwitz.

According to Harmon and Drobnicki,[2] relevant estimates are in range between 800,000 and five million people. List of estimates in millions: 0.8-0.9,[8] 1,[9] 1-2.5,[10] 1.1[11][12][13] 1.1-1.5,[14] 1.13,[15] 1.2-2.5,[16] 1.5-3.5,[17] 1.6,[18][19] 2,[20] 2.3,[21] 2.5,[22][23] 2.5-4[24][25],[26][27] 2.8-4,[28] 3 (only Polish victims),[29] over 3,[30] 3.5,[31] 3.5-4.5,[32] 4-5[33]

Richard Osborne · #21 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Swimming Pool, Auschwitz Camp. ‘

Inmates from Auschwitz and surrounding camps enjoyed swimming and sunbathing beside the pool on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. Although not as popular as sports like soccer, some competition was organized where inmates from different countries of origin, and different camps, raced in individual and relay events.’ Above photo and caption from Air Photo Evidence-maps of Auschwitz and other WW2 camps drawn from air photos.

Marc Klein, a detainee, recalls the swimming pool at least twice in his recollections of the camp. In an article entitled 'Auschwitz 1 Stammlager' he wrote:

The working hours were modified on Sundays and holidays, when most of the kommandos were at leisure. Roll call was at around noon; evenings were devoted to rest and to a choice of cultural and sporting activities. Football, basketball, and water-polo matches (in an open-air pool built within the perimeter by detainees) attracted crowds of onlookers. It should be noted that only the very fit and well-fed, exempt from the harsh jobs, could indulge in these games which drew the liveliest applause from the masses of other detainees (De l'Université aux camps de concentration: Télmorgnages strasbourgeois, Paris, les Belles-lettres, 1947, p. 453).

In his booklet Observations et réflexions sur les camps de concentration nazis he further wrote:

Auschwitz 1 was made up of 28 blocks built of stone laid out in three parallel rows between which ran paved streets. A third street ran the length of the quadrangle and was planted with birch trees, the Birkenhaller intended as a walkway for the detainees, with benches; there also was an open air swimming pool (booklet of 32 pages printed in Caen, 1948, p. 10; its text is a reproduction of the author's article published in Etudes germaniques, n° 3, 1948, pp. 244-275).

Another wartime Jewish detainee like Marc Klein and R. Weil, confirmed, in a short testimony written in 1997 entitled "Une Piscine à Auschwitz," that he saw, in July 1944, dozens of his fellow detainees busy at work on the said pool which, he pointed out, had "a diving board and an access ladder". (Esrail, registration no. 173295, « Une piscine à Auschwitz », in Après Auschwitz [Bulletin de l'Amicale des déportés d'Auschwitz], n° 264/octobre 1997, p. 10).

Richard Osborne · #22 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Wikipedia is not a credible source of information. Anyone can post anything they want at the Wiki website.

WarOnIgnorance · #23 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Osborne

From 1922 to 1964 some 1.5 million Jews migrated to Palestine from Europe. This accounts for most of Europe’s Jewish population, which the Jews falsely claim were exterminated by the Germans. Obviously, if Germany had “exterminated” the Jews, then the population of Jews would have been reduced to zero. Somehow, there were millions of Jews still very much alive at the war’s end. (In 1930 the world’s Jewish population was 13 million. By 1950 it had increased to 16 million.) The Jewish population of Germany in 1930 had only been 550,000 and in the period 1932 to 1939 alone, some 214,000 German Jews migrated to Palestine. In Poland, there were only about 200,000 Jews until 1924 when 3.2 million Jews moved in from Russia, increasing the Jewish population of Poland to 3.4 million. By 1930, having organized illegal immigration on a large scale, some 1.8 million Polish Jews entered the United States, leaving about 1.6 million Jews in Poland. By 1964, as stated above, most of these had migrated to Palestine. These would be mostly Ashkenazim Jews. A few thousand more Jews were scattered around other European countries. German Jews, and other Partisans, who remained in Germany and who refused to sign loyalty oaths during time of war, were interned in camps. They were released when the war ended. Thousands of smiling healthy Jews who had comfortably sat out the war in their self-sustaining camps, taking an occasional dip in the Auschwitz swimming pool, returned to their homes. There were, of course, thousands of Jewish Germans who were loyal citizens but mainstream-thinking historians rarely mention any of them.

The myth of the 6 million exterminated Jews was created by simply inflating the population of European Jews to a ridiculously high 10 million figure, and then subtracting from that the actual population of 4 million, who can be accounted for. The Jews then simply say that the Jewish population of Europe was reduced by 6 million Jews. They then add to their bizarre story doctored and blurry photographs, fake photos, photos of war-dead, and claim they are photos of dead Jews. Even more ridiculous is the Jew story that Germans had large numbers of gas chambers and crematoriums all over the country that enabled them to kill millions and millions and gazillions of Jews, as if Germans had nothing better to do with their time during the War when their own country was being incinerated by daily and nightly firebombings.

There never were any gas chambers. The few crematoriums that existed were those that are normally found in funeral homes. After the war, Allied forces were everywhere in Europe, along with news media from all over the world, and the International Red Cross and numerous other relief agencies. Nobody ever saw any gas chambers, crematoriums, or huge piles of dead Jews.

Lookie here:
Holocaust Encyclopedia
or here
frontline: memory of the camps: introduction | PBS
or here
America's First Freestanding Holocaust Memorial Center - Home
or here
Holocaust Pictures
or here
Holocaust Photos
or.....
and while you're at it, read this little booklet :
Amazon.co.uk: The Holocaust Encyclopedia: Books: Walter Laqueur,Judith Tydor Baumel

When you're done, I'll give you more, plenty more.

Frank · #24 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Osborne

Wikipedia is not a credible source of information. Anyone can post anything they want at the Wiki website.

My point is how can one trust the 6 million number when even the pro-Holocaust historians cannot seem to agree on how many died at the largest camp?

Another poster claimed 6 million died; I want to know how they came to that number? What do they know that other historians do not...

Quote:

Originally Posted by WaronIgnorance

When you're done, I'll give you more, plenty more.

Or maybe you could create and post an actual argument out of links you posted? Is there are particular piece from those links that debunk Mr. Osbournes claims?

WarOnIgnorance · #25 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank

Or maybe you could create and post an actual argument out of links you posted? Is there are particular piece from those links that debunk Mr. Osbournes claims?

Yes, there is something. It's called history and reality.

Frank · #26 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

Yes, there is something. It's called history and reality.

I am going to take a wild guess here; You did not actually read the links in question did you or at least read enough of their contents to create an argument from them?

Can you refute at least two of Mr. Osbournes claims? How about that?

metalted · #27 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Them evil zionists made a letter fer us. dem stupid jews own the werld. YouTube - Dear World

metalted · #28 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

metalted · #29 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

metalted · #30 (**permalink**) 03-14-2007

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode