Visit the U.S. Politics Online Discussion Forum Archives!

Sponsored by:

U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum  

Bookmark Us! E-Mail DONATE NOW! Photo Gallery Document Archives Quiz! Register to Vote!!!
Go Back   U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum > Information and Research > Historical Discourse

Historical Discourse A discussion forum dedicated to history.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2008
picaro picaro is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 272

   
Re: Native American genocide?

Ah well ... I just noticed Glenn got banned ...
__________________
"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon
Reply With Quote
  #182 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
42 Regular 42 Regular is offline
County Executive

 
Member Since: Jan 2008
Location: Southeastern USA
Posts: 347

   
Re: Native American genocide?

Well I haven't read every post on this thread so someone may have already brought this up. The supposed "Smallpox Blankets scheme was debunked years ago. The only supposed evidence was a few letters between a couple of British officers discussing whether they should try to spread smallpox to the Indians using blankets and no evidence that this was ever put into effect.
A diary entry, truncated and taken out of context, is often used to try to support the claim.

In an incident where Mandan Indians died after an ill advised attempt to inoculate them against smallpox it was sepsis caused by poor preservation of the serum which lead to the deaths.
Ward Churchill , the noted fraud and plagiarist, tried to stir up these old genocide claims a few years back, his works didn't hold up to scrutiny.

Such obscure historical references such as "the goods of the guineamen" were taken to mean infected blankets and such. The goods of the Guineamen turned out to be african slaves sold to the Indians, some of these slaves were apparently carriers of small pox.

Some "Genocidal" actions were taken by individuals at various times, but whites against indians and Indians against whites. My own ancestors were targeted for extermination by Dragging canoe and his renegade Cherokee who wished to kill off all the white settlers who'd bought land from their chiefs. Luckily the Cherokee Nation stood by their word and helped wipe out Dragging Canoe's band.

There was never an official government policy to wipe out the Indians, if there had been there wouldn't be any Indians.

Even the Spanish were known to have punished a Military Governor when he nearly wiped out a tribe which had massacred peaceful Indians because they had cooperated with the Spanish. His troops BTW were Indians, who'd only done to the renegade Indians what those Indians had done to them and their families.

During the time of the Conquistadors the vast majority of atrocities committed against the Indians were committed by the Indian Allies of the Spanish. They were bent on vengence for wrongs done to them in the recent past.

The First Indian reservation in the US was built as a place of refuge to protect the surviving members of the Pequoit tribe from the Naragansett, whom they had butchered at will for decades before being defeated by a combined force of White Militia and Naragansett braves.
Reply With Quote
  #183 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2008
TheLastBoyScout's Avatar
TheLastBoyScout TheLastBoyScout is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jan 2007
Location: U.S.A
Posts: 4,442

United_States    
Re: Native American genocide?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42 Regular View Post
Well I haven't read every post on this thread so someone may have already brought this up. The supposed "Smallpox Blankets scheme was debunked years ago. The only supposed evidence was a few letters between a couple of British officers discussing whether they should try to spread smallpox to the Indians using blankets and no evidence that this was ever put into effect.
A diary entry, truncated and taken out of context, is often used to try to support the claim.

In an incident where Mandan Indians died after an ill advised attempt to inoculate them against smallpox it was sepsis caused by poor preservation of the serum which lead to the deaths.
Ward Churchill , the noted fraud and plagiarist, tried to stir up these old genocide claims a few years back, his works didn't hold up to scrutiny.

Such obscure historical references such as "the goods of the guineamen" were taken to mean infected blankets and such. The goods of the Guineamen turned out to be african slaves sold to the Indians, some of these slaves were apparently carriers of small pox.

Some "Genocidal" actions were taken by individuals at various times, but whites against indians and Indians against whites. My own ancestors were targeted for extermination by Dragging canoe and his renegade Cherokee who wished to kill off all the white settlers who'd bought land from their chiefs. Luckily the Cherokee Nation stood by their word and helped wipe out Dragging Canoe's band.

There was never an official government policy to wipe out the Indians, if there had been there wouldn't be any Indians.

Even the Spanish were known to have punished a Military Governor when he nearly wiped out a tribe which had massacred peaceful Indians because they had cooperated with the Spanish. His troops BTW were Indians, who'd only done to the renegade Indians what those Indians had done to them and their families.

During the time of the Conquistadors the vast majority of atrocities committed against the Indians were committed by the Indian Allies of the Spanish. They were bent on vengence for wrongs done to them in the recent past.

The First Indian reservation in the US was built as a place of refuge to protect the surviving members of the Pequoit tribe from the Naragansett, whom they had butchered at will for decades before being defeated by a combined force of White Militia and Naragansett braves.
I think you have it about right.

These historical campaigns were about conquest.

- The Christians wanted to claim the holy land during the crusades... and
the people that inhabited that land were killed or pushed aside.

- The Spanish wanted the riches of South America for themselves, so
the people that inhabited the land were killed or pushed aside.

- Early Americans (the non-native kind) bought into manifest destiny and
wanted to claim the whole of the country and the people that inhabited
the land were killed or pushed aside.

- (Yes, Moon) You could also include Zionism in this group whereby they
killed or pushed aside the inhabitants of the land to claim it as their own.

These are all examples of conquest which had the side effect of killing or almost bringing to extinction of different native groups. Whether they were killed or not largely depended on whether or not they fought for their home. Most people would...

It's hard to call it pure genocide because the orchestration was fueled by expansive logic. Whoever had been in way of these conquests would have been killed.... even if they had happened to be proportionally ethnically diverse.

Nonetheless, these were atrocities and racism and small acts with genocidal intent did exist.
__________________

Congratulations President-Elect Obama
Reply With Quote
  #184 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: france
Posts: 5,158

   
Re: Native American genocide?

Hitler killed all the Jews and Slavs he could get his hands on to make room for German people. Does that make it any less a genocide?
Reply With Quote
  #185 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
Imperator's Avatar
Imperator Imperator is offline
Moderator
Audiatur et altera pars!

 
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 13,262

United_States    
Re: Native American genocide?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42 Regular View Post
Well I haven't read every post on this thread so someone may have already brought this up. The supposed "Smallpox Blankets scheme was debunked years ago. The only supposed evidence was a few letters between a couple of British officers discussing whether they should try to spread smallpox to the Indians using blankets and no evidence that this was ever put into effect.
A diary entry, truncated and taken out of context, is often used to try to support the claim.

In an incident where Mandan Indians died after an ill advised attempt to inoculate them against smallpox it was sepsis caused by poor preservation of the serum which lead to the deaths.
Ward Churchill , the noted fraud and plagiarist, tried to stir up these old genocide claims a few years back, his works didn't hold up to scrutiny.

Such obscure historical references such as "the goods of the guineamen" were taken to mean infected blankets and such. The goods of the Guineamen turned out to be african slaves sold to the Indians, some of these slaves were apparently carriers of small pox.

Some "Genocidal" actions were taken by individuals at various times, but whites against indians and Indians against whites. My own ancestors were targeted for extermination by Dragging canoe and his renegade Cherokee who wished to kill off all the white settlers who'd bought land from their chiefs. Luckily the Cherokee Nation stood by their word and helped wipe out Dragging Canoe's band.

There was never an official government policy to wipe out the Indians, if there had been there wouldn't be any Indians.

Even the Spanish were known to have punished a Military Governor when he nearly wiped out a tribe which had massacred peaceful Indians because they had cooperated with the Spanish. His troops BTW were Indians, who'd only done to the renegade Indians what those Indians had done to them and their families.

During the time of the Conquistadors the vast majority of atrocities committed against the Indians were committed by the Indian Allies of the Spanish. They were bent on vengence for wrongs done to them in the recent past.

The First Indian reservation in the US was built as a place of refuge to protect the surviving members of the Pequoit tribe from the Naragansett, whom they had butchered at will for decades before being defeated by a combined force of White Militia and Naragansett braves.
yes and what appears to be a premeditated nonincident-

The Amherst letter has been used to support the proposition of germ warfare or genocide against native populations. Amherst may have discussed it in correspondence with Bouquet, but there is no evidence that Colonel Bouquet carried it out. As he mentioned in his reply, Bouquet was afraid of what it would do to his own men and with good reason. 1763 was twenty-three years before Jenner’s work on vaccination, and one hundred years before Pasteur advanced his germ theory. The only thing known about smallpox in 1763 was…age, color of skin, social status meant nothing to the smallpox virus...an infected person died or, if lucky enough to survive, was often disfigured for life. No matter how bad Amherst may have wanted to be rid of the Indians, it seems doubtful that Bouquet would unleash a disease on his soldiers that had already killed millions of his own countrymen.

There is no evidence that Col. Bouquet took any action on Amherst's letter, but while Fort Pitt was under Indian siege, Captain Ecuyer wrote to Bouquet...

"Out of our regard for them (two Indian chiefs) we gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the smallpox hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect (William Trent)."

The incident with Captain Ecuyer occurred during the Pontiac Rebellion. There is also evidence that Ecuyer tried to control the spread of smallpox, at least from his own men.

In a letter to Bouquet, Captain Ecuyer writes that Fort Pitt is in good state of defense against all attempts from Savages, who are daily firing upon the Fort; unluckily the Small Pox has broken out in the garrison, for which he has built an Hospital under the Draw Bridge to prevent the Spreading of that distemper (Peter d'Errico, nativeweb.org).

In 1763, Fort Pitt was under siege by Indian forces under the command of Chief Pontiac (Pontiac Rebellion by Tebbel). With smallpox in the garrison at Fort Pitt and Indians attacking the fort, two blankets would have had little to do with the spread of smallpox among the Indians. A by far greater source for spreading the smallpox virus would have been infected blood from mutilated soldier and settler bodies, scalps, clothing, and in some cases cannibalism, which occurred during the Pontiac Rebellion. Every warrior that returned from Fort Pitt to Indian villages up and down the East coast with smallpox infected war trophies carried the smallpox virus with them. Contaminated warriors spreading the smallpox virus is never mentioned by proponents of Indian Genocide; it does not fit their biased agenda.

Smallpox Native American Plains Indian Genocide Pictures
__________________
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)




Reply With Quote
  #186 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008
Brett Golden Brett Golden is offline
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
Permanently Banned

 
Member Since: Nov 2007
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 1,022

   
Re: Native American genocide?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrienXII View Post
Hitler killed all the Jews and Slavs he could get his hands on to make room for German people. Does that make it any less a genocide?
The jew-led USSR killed more than twice as many Slavs as the Germans did. And the Germans did all their killing during war time.

The real genocide of WWII was the deaths of 50 million White gentiles. And the only victors are the jews. A simple glimpse at the present world demographics prove it, since White gentiles are now less than 8 percent of the world's population, and dropping rapidly in accordance with the world jewish agenda.

See The Official Website of Representative David Duke, PhD for details, confirmations, and proofs. Also White Civil Rights. Or phone me, Glenn Miller, at 417-463-7703.

Sieg Heil !!!
Reply With Quote
  #187 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2008
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: france
Posts: 5,158

   
Re: Native American genocide?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Golden View Post
The jew-led USSR killed more than twice as many Slavs as the Germans did. And the Germans did all their killing during war time.
Wartime, peacetime, what does it have to do with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Golden View Post
The real genocide of WWII was the deaths of 50 million White gentiles. And the only victors are the jews. A simple glimpse at the present world demographics prove it, since White gentiles are now less than 8 percent of the world's population, and dropping rapidly in accordance with the world jewish agenda.
And what, pray tell, have the Jews to do with the declining White gentiles' fertility rates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Golden View Post
Sieg Heil !!!
Well, if you're a Nazi, you can hardly bemoan the deaths of a few millions "Untermensch" Slavs, now, can you?
Reply With Quote
  #188 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2008
42 Regular 42 Regular is offline
County Executive

 
Member Since: Jan 2008
Location: Southeastern USA
Posts: 347

   
Re: Native American genocide?

Quote:
"Out of our regard for them (two Indian chiefs) we gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the smallpox hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect (William Trent)."
Thats the truncated diary entry I mentioned.
The gift of Blankets and Handkerchiefs from the stored items in the infirmary was to seal their bargin, Turtle's Heart was a friend of the Whites and had offered to speak up for them in counsel. To deliberately infect one of their only friends would have been ridiculous.
The South Eastern Indians were noted for personal cleanliness, to offer one a soiled blanket or handkerchief would have been a deadly insult.
Blankets and other items in the infirmary would have been washed and possibly new un used items. Its possible infection was spread by these items but highly unlikely and a reading of the complete diary entry gives no indication that this was the plan.

Its fairly easy to cherry pick a few words from a paragraph and make it appear to read as something which was not there.

BTW
Its possible Trent was one of my Ancestors. Our family tree mentions the service of a William Trent in the Revolutionary war and his receiving a pension for that service. That William Trent married an Indian woman after his wife died.

PS
Quote:
Journal of William Trent, excerpt:
[May] 24th [1763] The Turtles Heart a principal Warrior of the Delawares and Mamaltee a Chief came within a small distance of the Fort Mr. McKee went out to them and they made a Speech letting us know that all our [POSTS] as Ligonier was destroyed, that great numbers of Indians [were coming and] that out of regard to us, they had prevailed on 6 Nations [not to] attack us but give us time to go down the Country and they desired we would set of immediately. The Commanding Officer thanked them, let them know that we had everything we wanted, that we could defend it against all the Indians in the Woods, that we had three large Armys marching to Chastise those Indians that had struck us, told them to take care of their Women and Children, but not to tell any other Natives, they said they would go and speak to their Chiefs and come and tell us what they said, they returned and said they would hold fast of the Chain of friendship. Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect. They then told us that Ligonier had been attacked, but that the Enemy were beat of
Heres part of the Family tree.
It was Alexander Trent that married the Cherokee maiden, not his Brother William.
Quote:
More About HENRY TRENT:

Fact 1: May have been the original immigrant ancestor

Fact 2: Was a brother or uncle of William Trent born 1655 for whom Trenton NJ was named

Fact 3: There is a deed for land in Henrico County, VA dated Nov 7, 1673



Children of HENRY TRENT and ELIZABETH SHERMAN are:

2. i. WILLIAM2 TRENT, b. 1686; d. 1769.

3. ii. ALEXANDER TRENT, b. 1672; d. 1703.

iii. HENRY II TRENT.

iv. JOHN TRENT.

v. MARY TRENT, m. RICHARD COX.

vi. SUSANNAH TRENT.

vii. REBECCA TRENT.





Generation No. 2



2. WILLIAM2 TRENT (HENRY1) was born 1686, and died 1769. He married URSULLA BRANCH, daughter of UNKNOWN BRANCH.



More About WILLIAM TRENT:

Fact 1: by some accounts birth year is 1696



Children of WILLIAM TRENT and URSULLA BRANCH are:

4. i. ALEXANDER SR.3 TRENT, d. Abt. 1803.

ii. WILLIAM II TRENT.

iii. HENRY TRENT.

iv. BENJAMIN TRENT.

v. LUCY TRENT, m. UNKNOWN GILES.





3. ALEXANDER2 TRENT (HENRY1) was born 1672, and died 1703. He married OBEDIENCE BRANCH.



Child of ALEXANDER TRENT and OBEDIENCE BRANCH is:

5. i. ALEXANDER II3 TRENT, b. 1703; d. 1750.





Generation No. 3



4. ALEXANDER SR.3 TRENT (WILLIAM2, HENRY1) died Abt. 1803. He married (1) CHEROKEE MAIDEN. He married (2) ELIZABETH SCOTT November 23, 1751. He married (3) ELIZABETH BALEY Aft. 1769.



More About ALEXANDER SR. TRENT:

Fact 1: Scalped by the Indians in Patrick County, VA

Fact 2: left four young boys when he died.

Fact 3: In Nov 1780 paid in full for 247 acres and sold 247 acres in 1790

Fact 4: Land purchase and sale is recorded in clerks office of Campbell County, VA

Fact 5: Later lived in Patrick county VA



Children of ALEXANDER TRENT and CHEROKEE MAIDEN are:

6. i. ALEXANDER JR.4 TRENT, b. March 29, 1759, Grayson County, VA; d. May 17, 1841, Hancock County, TN (was once Hawkins County, TN).

7. ii. WILLIAM D. SR. TRENT, b. 1770, Virginia; d. Aft. 1860.





Children of ALEXANDER TRENT and ELIZABETH SCOTT are:

iii. ALEXANDER4 TRENT.



More About ALEXANDER TRENT:

Fact 1: along with his brother, moved to Green Co. Indiana



iv. WILLIAM TRENT.

v. JOHN TRENT.

vi. JOSIAH TRENT.





5. ALEXANDER II3 TRENT (ALEXANDER2, HENRY1) was born 1703, and died 1750. He married (1) FRANCES ALLEN. He married (2) FRANCIS ARCHER.



Child of ALEXANDER TRENT and FRANCES ALLEN is:

8. i. ALLEXANDER III4 TRENT, b. March 03, 1728/29; d. February 27, 1793.





Generation No. 4



6. ALEXANDER JR.4 TRENT (ALEXANDER SR.3, WILLIAM2, HENRY1) was born March 29, 1759 in Grayson County, VA, and died May 17, 1841 in Hancock County, TN (was once Hawkins County, TN). He married VIRGINIA JANE BURTON. She was born 1765, and died 1843 in Grayson County, VA.



More About ALEXANDER JR. TRENT:

Fact 1: Brothers Alexander and William married sisters.

Fact 2: Fought in the Revolutionary War.

Fact 3: Came from Henrico Virginia



More About VIRGINIA JANE BURTON:

Fact 1: Sister to Charity Burton Osborne wife of brother William Sr



Children of ALEXANDER TRENT and VIRGINIA BURTON are:

i. SALLY5 TRENT, m. PLEASANT MURRELL.

ii. WILLIAM TRENT, b. 1787; d. 1877; m. WEALTHA BEAMAN, 1819; b. 1803; d. 1895.

iii. SAMUEL TRENT, b. 1790; m. REBECCA.

iv. JESSE TRENT, b. 1795; m. (1) ELIZABETH; m. (2) M. LILLIAN.

v. ALEXANDER O. TRENT, b. 1798; m. POLLY SCALF; b. 1788.

vi. BENJAMIN TRENT, b. 1803; m. (1) ELIZABETH WINSTEAD; m. (2) MARTHA BRIGGS.

vii. GEORGE TRENT, b. 1805; m. LANDY BELCHER.





7. WILLIAM D. SR.4 TRENT (ALEXANDER SR.3, WILLIAM2, HENRY1) was born 1770 in Virginia, and died Aft. 1860. He married (1) MARGARET MARTIN WINSTEAD. He married (2) CHARITY BURTON OSBORNE 1795 in Grayson county, Virginia. She was born 1773 in Grayson County, Virginia, and died 1820 in Tennessee.



Last edited by 42 Regular; 02-03-2008 at 07:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6
Copyright © 2000 - 2008 U.S. Politics Online