Some people wanted land, the indians didn't want to give it up, so they were driven from it by force of arms. It was the LAND that drove them, not the goal of total extermination. Again, the fact that peace treaties were negotiated after armed conflicts points to total extermination not being the goal. It total extermination was the goal, no peace would have been made.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

Well, cbussey, I am outta here for the day. I will have to pick this up again tomorrow.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

You're a strange person. I'll bet if somebody killed everybody in your family EXCEPT your grandfather, nobody would be able to convince you the intent was anything other than genocide.

The indians BARELY survived. To this very day, very few are around as compared to many other minorities. Are you descended from Custer or something? Just asking for somebody else's benefit because I'm done wasting time on you.

Please, stick to your highschool history book. You wouldn't like a dose of reality that you could easily find in a few hours research of this subject.

HA HA HA! not if those peace treaties were going to be intentionally broken! (as they were)

Hitler signed the non-agression pact with Stalin. However, he clearly intented to invade the S.U. in 1941.

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Why with every inidan tribe? becuase if you define the criteria that way, then you are right.

If one tribe was targeted for extermination, then that tribe experienced genocide.

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Really? This happened to you? What tribe and when? How did your grandfather survive?

Funny how there are over 2 million alive today. Attacking my descent again I see? As if that has anything to do with this.

In case you haven't noticed, most highschool history books would agree with YOU. I, however, have based my opinion on individual research and actual defenitions. You should try it sometime, instead of relying solely on emotion.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

True enough, many were broken. However, my point is that if total extermination was the goal from the outset, why bother to even make those treaties?

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

True enough, but I guess that begs the question; Are all indian tribes in America ethnically the same? Honest question.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

possibly to buy time. Also, to take advantage of the 'surprise' of yet another broken treaty.

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a good question, i think they weren't though. However, since the Jews of Europe were most likely comprised of several ethnicities, none of which were targeted for total annihilation during the nazi era, does that mean the Jews did not experience genocide? In this case, we would say, yes, because the perpatrators perceived the Jews to be one common 'ethnicity' or race, and set out to annihilate that group as they defined them. In this case, reality is not determining whether or not it was genocide, but the perception of the perpatrator.

which begs the question in the native american case. Should we go by how the whites perceived the natives, or by what they really were.

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No, I'm white. I tried some getting you to empathize. My expectations were low.



Two whole million? Wow, that is quite a lot of them isn't it? It's nice to see there are SO MANY of the indigenous population still around. That number include every single solitary person in america that claims native descent? I'll bet it does. If they are a mere 1/6th the population of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS in the nation; ( that would be correct?) how close did these guys come to annihilation?

There are 6 TIMES the number of ILLEGAL (that's not counting legal of course) immigrants in this country as there survive native americans. That bothers me. You?

I never read any of that in my highschool history book. Highschool history was over 25 years ago for me though. Did they correct them?

I'm not spock. I do have emotions and I don't apologize for them. So what planet are you from?

Ahhh, I see. I misunderstood what you were trying to say, sorry.

Are there any sources that give the American indian population before whites started showing up?

No, it doesn't bother me. Why do you think it should? Am I somehow responsible for that? Plus, if we want to be technical, the vast majority of hispanic illegal immigrants are decendents of the native populations of their home countries. i.e. indians.

Mine apparently did.

Not asking you apologize for them, just leave them out of this debate.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

I just don't see the military logic in that. For the most part, we had them out manned and out gunned. There would have been no need to buy time or get some element of suprise back.

I believe it had more to do with getting what we wanted from them (i.e. land). After fighting some would come forward, say they were willing to leave, and we would stop. That is, until we out grew that land and needed/wanted more. Rinse and repeat. Either way, it would show that extermination of that entire race was not the objective.

__________________
I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

I tend to think they were/are ethnically the same. I mean, we always hear them classified by tribe (nationality) and/or language. Not race or ethnicity. Still though, even if whites did perceive them as a single race, actions still differed from tribe to tribe. Therefore suggesting that a single policy of total extermination towards indians was not the care.

EDIT: Grammar

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

In all your "independent research"; what name did you come to find the "indians" were most commonly referred to by? Maybe you'll even look up what presidents themselves called them.

Do you find them most notably referred to as native americans?, Creeks, apaches, Sioux? What? Please ignore every time the word "savage" comes across your vision and concentrate on finding the words Seminole, Cherokee, etc. etc.. Good luck in ignoring the fact that the NATIVE AMERICANS were MOST commonly referred to as "savages", from the presidency on down.

What was the point of your post here? Oh yeah, I remember, it was to show there was some kind of "difference" in the genocide of Jews and the genocide of native americans. Let's be honest, they were ALL called savages. Well isn't that nice. Savages applied to a people who's weapons were ENTIRELY built for hunting for food. War was pretty much an alien concept. They were slaughtered man woman and child by a very warlike people that walked around on a daily basis with weapons that could NOT be mistaken to be meant to use to kill a rabbit. THOSE guys, guys who were well versed in the art of killing human beings, called the indians "savage". Hmmm.

whether it was your intent or not, you just showed the Jew holocaust and the native american holocaust were UNIQUELY similar. In both cases the "enemy" was demonized. In American press you did not read a story about the "river folk (fishermen and gardeners) across the river", you read "the savages, on our frontier."

The Jews were not entirely wiped out. Some survived, and yet it's referred to as an attempted genocide (which it surely was) and a holocaust. Neither were the native americans completely wiped out, but it was certainly both genocide and a largely unreported (in America) holocaust.