Holacaust Denial/Revisionism - Page 2 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Brett Golden · #16 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunz

It seems to be that this whole holocaust denial movement is a rather new thing that I am aware of.
That being said. I have had the pleasure of being a part of a small group discussion with Ellie Wiessell where he was quite descriptive in his account. For the sake of this thread. I will take what he has to say with a grain of salt. He has books to sell.

What confirms it for me is my late neighbor. A WWII veteran that served under Patton and was apart of the 80th infantry division that was apart of liberating Buchenwald. I interviewed him at length about his time under arms. He was upfront with stories of the action he saw, his aquaintences being killed in front of him in gruesome ways and dishing out more than he ever took. Where the story became emotional for him was his description of entering the camp.

He was an ethnic German and his description and the shame he felt over the entire affair was quite moving. Mr. VonRosen had nothing to gain from the story he told. All he wanted was for it never to happen again.

Man, you have got to be kidding. What you said is that one single person's story CONFIRMED the murders of 6 million jews.

Hell, there are millions of survivors of WWII who witnessed attrocities being committed by every single country that fought in that war.

Eisenhower deliberately murdered 900,000 German POWs AFTER THE WAR, by starving them to death and by cramming them into barbed wire hell holes, with no buildings, no heat, and no blankets so they'd freeze to death. Read the book "Other Losses" for confirmation. AFTER THE WAR - AFTER THE GERMANS HAD LAID DOWN THEIR WEAPONS.

Those who refuse to learn truths from history are doomed to repeat it. Let's demand free speech for Germans to present their side. Down with laws that imprison Germans who defend themselves against attrocity hate propaganda.

Brett Golden · #17 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

Are you aware that the number of Jews estimated to have been killed at Auschwitz has been significantly reduced over the years.

Yes, they changed the death figure from 4 million killed down to 1.4 million, without subtracting even one death from the 6 million jews allegedly killed during WWII.

They made the change right after a highly publicised trial against holocaust "denier" Ernst Zundel in Canada. (See his website: www.zundelsite.org).

For 44 years there was a large plaque at Auschwitz that said "4 million killed by Germans". Millions saw the plaque and it was shown to billions via the media. Then they quietly changed the plaque's figure to 1.4 million, and not one in 10,000 gentiles today has ever even heard about the reduction. And the jews and the jewsmedia continue their lie that Germans murdered 6 million jews, in spite of the reduction of over 2 and 1/2 million Auschwitz deaths.

Let's demand a fair trial for Germans. We've heard the jewish side for decades. Now let's hear the other. We can never made fair intelligent judgment until we have. Simple logic a child can understand.

picaro · #18 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpd8488

You are absolutely correct in that we need to actively engage holocaust deniers (and not just about their scientific theories).

Not really, they're merely vermin trying to rehabilitate Hitler's legacy and whitewash it ... pun intended ...

Quote:

The problem with deniers is that they sound credible and even have selective bits of shoddy research to back their claims up. They are effective propagandists who are fully capable of swaying opinions.

Effective with who? ... Who cares if they rave on and on about this sort of BS in their little echo chambers? Morons are morons. There is more than enough literature out there for anybody interested to not be duped by these idiots. If you still inclined to take them seriously, well, you just have other issues ... likely mental ones ...

Quote:

This is why civil society needs to address their talking points to show everyone exactly how they are wrong so they are not able to spread their views.

They've been addressed, thoroughly, back in the 1940's ...

picaro · #19 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunz

It seems to be that this whole holocaust denial movement is a rather new thing that I am aware of.

Depends on what you consider 'rather new', but this propaganda campaign in the U.S. began in the 1980's, under Willis Carto's raft of bizarre publications. Neo-Nazis like Ernst Zundel make a nice living peddling this big ZOG conspiracy theory to sociopathic teenagers and semi-literate pyschos living in their grandmothers' basements.

WarOnIgnorance · #20 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

Sounds like you're saying the coin only has one side, which is dogmatic, to say the least.

The coin has many sides. One of those is for rational people, who won't ignore the mountains of solid evidence. Another one is for people like Zündel or Irving. The latter have as much credibility as young earth creationists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

Perhaps you should read Finkelstein's The Holocaust Industry.

I dont' know it, but I'll assume it's about post-Holocaust events (Israel probably). That's why the 'itself' was in the original statement.

WarOnIgnorance · #21 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

2 - There was a VERY high level of collaboration with Nazis going on in Europe. This fact is widly denied in most countries and is very unknown for most people...

Very correct and very important.

It was not 'the Germans' that were the problem but 'the Nazis'.

tiny tim · #22 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett Golden

Man, you have got to be kidding. What you said is that one single person's story CONFIRMED the murders of 6 million jews.

Hell, there are millions of survivors of WWII who witnessed attrocities being committed by every single country that fought in that war.

Eisenhower deliberately murdered 900,000 German POWs AFTER THE WAR, by starving them to death and by cramming them into barbed wire hell holes, with no buildings, no heat, and no blankets so they'd freeze to death. Read the book "Other Losses" for confirmation. AFTER THE WAR - AFTER THE GERMANS HAD LAID DOWN THEIR WEAPONS.

Other Losses is complete BS. Stephen Ambrose: A Review of 'Other Losses'

mpd8488 · #23 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by picaro

Effective with who? ... Who cares if they rave on and on about this sort of BS in their little echo chambers? Morons are morons. There is more than enough literature out there for anybody interested to not be duped by these idiots. If you still inclined to take them seriously, well, you just have other issues ... likely mental ones ...

Their ideas are spreading (especially in Europe) and it is dangerous. Their tactics are effective with those who are not well educated on the events surrounding World War II, which is unfortunately most people. There are a lot of morons in the world, but that does not make them bad. They become white supremacists, neo-Nazis, etc when we allow them to be duped by these propagandists.

liberty1776 · #24 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by picaro

Not really, they're merely vermin trying to rehabilitate Hitler's legacy and whitewash it ... pun intended ...

I am not sure how true this is, first of all. There are Jews who are also Holocaust revisonists. Second of all, why should one's political beliefs imply that all of their beliefs are flawed?

liberty1776 · #25 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

I think it is really sad that people try to deny something like this.

Why is it sad?

Quote:

I don't understand Neo Nazis or Ultra Rightwingers... They hate jews even today... shouldn't they be proud of what their "heroes" did then?

Stupidity carries strange fruits I guess...

Nothing about Holocaust revisionsim implies that one hates Jews.

ThorHammer · #26 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Thought this would be relevant

Nazi Archive in Bad Arolsen Opens Doors to Public | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 28.11.2007

timj219 · #27 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by liberty1776

Why is it sad?

Nothing about Holocaust revisionsim implies that one hates Jews.

Well when someone supports a view of reality that clashes with all the available evidence it begs the question of their motivation to do so. For instance deniers of the Armenian genocide generally do so for the purpose of protecting the reputation of the turkish government. Science deniers like creationists do so for reasons of religious faith. Certainly antisemitism is the most obvious reason for holocaust denial but of course there might be others. Do you have any to suggest?

ThorHammer · #28 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

I suppose we first have to establish if Holocaust denial and Holocaust revisionsim are one in the same. From a historical/scientific standpoint revisionsim, in and of itself, is a good thing.

Pogo · #29 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

The coin has many sides. One of those is for rational people, who won't ignore the mountains of solid evidence. Another one is for people like Zündel or Irving. The latter have as much credibility as young earth creationists.

Yes, the evidence certainly shows that the Nazis committed crimes against humanity, but it is much less certain that the Nazis murdered precisely 6 million Jews, or thereabouts. And if you ask why one should quibble as to the precise number murdered, I'd say that the fact that the 6 million figure is presented as sacrosanct is more than reason enough.

WarOnIgnorance · #30 (**permalink**) 11-28-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

Yes, the evidence certainly shows that the Nazis committed crimes against humanity, but it is much less certain that the Nazis murdered precisely 6 million Jews, or thereabouts. And if you ask why one should quibble as to the precise number murdered, I'd say that the fact that the 6 million figure is presented as sacrosanct is more than reason enough.

Would you quibble upwards too ?

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