Sorry, hit submit too early


Then it appears we are at a stand still.

Correct. That is why I thought it was correct that the Germans were not charged. I was simply pointing to it as an example of how those types of actions are accepted and legitimate.

What games? Where in the article does it say that civilian lives must be safe guarded above all else, to include military necessity? You are the one claiming it does, I am simply asking you to prove it.

__________________
Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

PROTECTION OF CIVILIAN POPULATIONS AGAINST BOMBING FROM THE AIR IN CASE OF WAR

Unanimous resolution of the League of Nations Assembly, September 30, 1938.

The Assembly,

Considering that on numerous occasions public opinion has expressed through the most authoritative channels its horror of the bombing of civilian populations;

Considering that this practice, for which there is no military necessity and which, as experience shows, only causes needless suffering, is condemned under the recognised principles of international law;

Considering further that, though this principle ought to be respected by all States and does not require further reaffirmation, it urgently needs to be made the subject of regulations specially adapted to air warfare and taking account of the lessons of experience;

Considering that the solution of this problem, which is of concern to all States, whether Members of the League of Nations or not, calls for technical investigation and thorough consideration;

Considering that the Bureau of the Conference for the Reduction and Limitation of Armaments is to meet in the near future and that it is for the Bureau to consider practical means of undertaking the necessary work under conditions most likely to lead to as general an agreement as possible:

I. Recognizes the following principles as a necessary basis for any subsequent regulations:

1)The intentional bombing of civilian populations is illegal;

2)Objectives aimed at from the air must be legitimate military objectives and must be identifiable;

3) Any attack on legitimate military objectives must be carried out in such a way that civilian populations in the neighbourhood are not bombed through negligence;

II. Also takes the opportunity to reaffirm that the use of chemical or bacterial methods in the conduct of war is contrary to international law, as recalled more particularly in the resolution of the General Commission of the Conference for the Reduction and Limitation of Armaments of July 23rd 1932, and the resolution of the Council of May 14th, 1938.

It says nothing of the sort; you are merely revising the Convention articles to fit your argument; here is the text of the 4th Hague Conventions of 1907, Article 23:

In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden:

(a) To employ poison or poisoned weapons;

(b) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

(c) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defense, has surrendered at discretion;

(d) To declare that no quarter will be given;

(e) To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;

Clearly it does not say that civilians must be the primary target or even a target for these conventions to apply; military personnel are covered as well under the provisions I cited...

Nice try though...

A very sensitive, important subject and definitely not material for a brawl.

There is another side to the story: The ongoing reconstruction of Dresden in recent years is one of the most encouraging and moving developments in the world today. There are parts of the city that are once again stunningly beautiful, and the famous Elbe panorama has been restored.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

Civilians were not intentionally bombed. Factories and railyards were. Wording is everything, whether you choose to believe it or not. The allies did not bomb Dresden with the intention of killing civilians.

right, and they weren't bombed through negligence. They were hit because they were right accross the fucking street and because available technology made it next to impossible.

Clearly it doesn't say the word civilian at all, nor does it in anyway render the raid on Dresden illegal.

No poison or poisoned weapons were used. Nor was anyone killed or wounded in a "treacherous" way. No one laid down their arms, or had no additional means to resist, or surrendered. No quarter was never declared. No weapon systems were used that caused unnecessary suffering.

and you accuse me of twisting words?

__________________
Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

indeed. I was able to see some pictures of the rebuilt Frauenkirche recently. Really an amazing building.

__________________
Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

BTW the US refused to ratify the Geneva Convention ban on targeting civilian populations, as this is the principal US strategy since the A-Bomb became available.
Nuclear weapons aren't much use except for eliminating cities and their entire population.

Even in conventional warfare, the US does not consider civilian population in targeting decisions. In the first attack of the Iraq war, a block of apartment buildings was destroyed based on faulty information (supplied by the Chalabi group) that Saddam Hussein would be at a restaurant in that block.

In the theoretical situation of an AAA battery located above a hospital, the Geneva Accords would have the attackers simply avoid the AAA, whereas US policy would be to target it with air attacks.

__________________
“The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine.”

Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi (R)
on McCain

“I decided I didn’t want this guy anywhere near a trigger.”
Senator Pete Domenici, New Mexico (R)
on McCain

“My anger did not help my campaign ... People don’t like angry candidates very much.”

McCain on McCain

We do. I can tell you this from first hand experience. If the mission can be accomplished without civilian deaths, we will certainly take that route. However, if a mission cannot be accomplished without civilian deaths, then it sucks to be them.

Rightly so.

__________________
Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Frank,

I have to go luck busy for a bit. I will return and pick this conversation up later.

__________________
Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Of course they did; one does not carpet bomb a civilian inhabited city with incendiary bombs unless they intend to kill the inhabitants.

It states that bombing a civilian population is forbidden; the allies did this intentionally. They took no care to distinguish between civilians and military targets hence were negligent; the fact that the allies used incendiary bombs proves they had no desire to make such a distinction they wanted to burn the city to the ground.

Again, nice try...

And yet you said that: according to the Hague Conventions, civilians have to be targeted in order for it to be a crime.

How do you draw this conclusion when the term "civilian" is not used in the convention article?

If you do not believe that using weapons meant to burn people live by the legions does not constitute using a weapon that caused unnecessary suffering what can I say? If you believe that intentionally firebombing a city full of civilians and refugees is not "treacherous" what I can say?

If you believe these things you are divorced from reality and I cannot reason with someone who lives in a fantasy world...

It is magnificent.

I saw it for the first time while walking through the new town, on the other side of the Elbe. There's a place where the streets open out on to a wide avenue, and the panorama across the river becomes suddenly visible. A German friend tapped me on the shoulder and pointed: it was a very cold night during the Christmas season. It was beautiful beyond what I had expected.

I had looked forward for several years to seeing the Frauenkirche. I followed the rebuilding on the internet, and it was just completed in 2006. The Hofkirche is, in my opinion, more moving and impressive inside - but there is nothing quite like the bell-shaped dome of the Frauenkirche.

There are so many other buildings to see: the city gate, the Semperoper, the pavilion and gardens of the Zwinger, and the many restored town houses that are even now being rebuilt. So it is not just a collection of famous buildings - it is now once again a living city. There are so many buildings in various stages of construction. The altmarkt, the scene of terrible destruction and buring bodies in 1945, was the site for Germany's largest Christmas market.

I hope to return within a few years.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

Churchill's March 28, 1945 memo to General Ismay

Wow. I've been looking for an online reference to that memo for years!!!

It blatantly admits the serial acts of terrorism was in fact, allied policy.

divorced from reality? I have actually fought in a war Frank, and have first hand expierence with these "rules" of war and how they are interpreted in the real world.

but, you are right. If that is the image you have of me then there is no reason to continue our discussion. for what it is worth, I did enjoy it.

__________________
Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Wow, great find Malvolio!

__________________
Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

For what it is worth, I don't see it admitting anything. It simply states that, at that stage in the war, more care has to be put into identifying worthwhile targets. That being said, "terror tactics" were employed by both sides. It is war after all.

__________________
Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.