Having recently returned from a WW2 reenactment where I had the chance to yet again speak with WW2 vets, including some vets of the Waffen-SS, I am curious to know how the Waffen-SS is viewed by the history buffs of this forum. Do they deserve the reputation they have as criminals? Do their divisions merrit being called elite? General thoughts?

I should throw out there that I do, in fact, reenact a member of the Waffen-SS at WW2 reenactments and have been studying them (along with the entire Wehrmacht) for some time. While I am by no means an "expert", if anyone has any questions regarding the Waffen-SS I will be happy to answer them to the best of my abilities.

__________________
There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

Yes - German militarism was awfull and can be compared to the present-day normal foreign policy of USA, GB, Israel, etc. This militarism was a reason to once develop international organizations as UN and many other humanitarian organizations.

The ideas of German Nazies were exactly similar what we see today in some countries - e.g. if you read US strategy papers as PNAC and other papers by Bush Hawks. Democracy is important - not in the own country, but the lack of it in some other country can be used as an excuse to destroy the country. In the own country democracy must be avoided as it is hindering military aggressions, investments to military industry, occupation, assassinations, etc. Therefore it is not an acceptable philosophy. Democracy may lead to waste of money to e.g. education, health care, social services, culture, etc. People can be put into order by using propaganda - uneducated people believe anything what is well presented and repeated all the time ... said Goering, Goebbels - and CIA. If you want to kill your opposition, burn Reichstagshause yourself and accuse the opposition ... if you want to occupy oil countries, organize 911, accuse them and strike.

Many SS units were entirely made up of non German volunteers and conscripts from German allied and occupied nations.

German SS were elite in that they usually got to ride while others walked. They often had the best choice of weaponry.
They were certainly dangerous and dedicated fighters.

One old SS man said in an interview "We were Crusaders, without God".

Good quote. What are Crusaders without God? Butchers, nothing more.

Without researching their history too deeply, my impression of the SS is that they were rather like Saddam’s Iraqi Republican Guards. Their goals were as much political as they were military. In fact, my guess is that was the model Saddam used to create the IRG. As such, their mission was as much political as it was military, and their actions deserved more criticism than those of the Wehrmacht. A big difference between the two is that, while the IRG was loyal only to Saddam, the loyalty of the SS was somewhat divided between Hitler and Himmler.

The SS was elite to a degree, but not nearly on the same level as SEAL, SAS, Spetznaz, etc. They were made up of the most fit and motivated troops with the best equipment, but with over SS 40 divisions, they were obviously not operating at the same level we think of today as elite Special Forces.

__________________
Election 2008 – Addicted to Placebos

From what I read the Waffen SS though ideologically nazi, were the cream of the crop, hence the blood grp. Tattoo etc......now, from my understanding, with the exception of small specialized units they didn’t operate along the lines of specialized butchers ala the Einzatsgruppen .....waffen meaning they fought in combat units , LSSAH etc...and they were very very good...supremely motivated, very well trained, first choice in equipment, kept as close to full strength as possible ct...

__________________
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)

That quote says it all. I would agree with Adrian regarding the word "butcher".

Do they deserve the word "criminal"? Based on everything I have read and the film footage I have seen, the asnwer would be a definite "yes".

The SS were a self-described elite order. They were a grotesque perversion of Christian kinghthood. They did not hesitate to slaughter women and children; indeed, they deliberately murdered them, mocking and humiliating them before they died.

Were they all full-fledged believers in the evil creed of the SS? It seems unlikely, especially later on during the war. Nevertheless, it was a criminal organization created for criminal ends, to be attained by crimal methods.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

tim...we are speaking of the waffen SS...theres a huge difference...these guys were foot soldiers or tankers or artillerists...not political murder squads.....


The Waffen-SS (German for "Armed SS", literally "Weapons SS") was the combat arm of the Schutzstaffel ("Protective Squadron") or SS. It was founded in Germany in 1939 after the SS was split into two units[1] but the title of Waffen-SS only became official on 2 March 1940.[2] Although headed by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, the Waffen-SS saw action throughout the Second World War under operational control of the Wehrmacht. During the war it grew to 39 divisions that served as so-called elite combat troops alongside the regular army.[1][3]

After the war, at the Nuremberg Trials the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organisation due to their political connections to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP), and involvement in war crimes and The Holocaust, this is all except conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted from the judgment on the basis of involuntary servitude. Therefore Waffen-SS veterans were denied many of the rights afforded to other German combat veterans who had served in the Heer, Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine.[4] Waffen-SS soldiers were held in separate, more rigorous confinement by the Western Allies and were punished severely by the Soviet Union. As well, many Waffen-SS men recruited from German-occupied countries in Europe were punished by their home countries.

In the 1950s and 1960s Waffen-SS veteran groups fought legal battles in the newly founded West Germany to overturn the Nuremberg ruling and win pension rights for their members.

__________________
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)

These were the really bad guys of the SS.
Allgemeine SS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
SS-Totenkopfverb& - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well at least for me the SS has to be called a criminal organisation , but I think it's not really appropriate to label every single member of the SS as a self-intended criminal as well.

I think (many, not all) members at least have to be blamed for (a) probably being too close to the Nazi ideology,(b) joining the SS for career reasons or (c) being utterly naive and seeing their SS-membership as some sort of weekend fun activity.

Just a note; the Waffen-SS didn't have the first choice of equipment as it is widely believed. This is especially true in the early war years. This changed later in the war, though not simply because they were the Waffen-SS. In the later stages of the war, panzer and panzergrenadier divisions (be they Heer or Waffen-SS) recieved priority when it came to equipment.

__________________
There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

sure, I agree... in the early part of the war, 39 -42...the ss was not the behemouth it became regads no. of divisions etc.......sucking up equipment, manpower....which in the end is self defeating......imho

__________________
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)

On an Individual Basis I don't doubt that many Waffen SS were not responsible for or even participated in atrocities.
The SS Units composed of Conscripts probably included a lot of guys who would have loved to have found a way out.


Theres a Street in Paris named for one such unit of conscripts who rebelled or mutinied against the NAZI and were wiped out by the NAZI.

Agreed. I would even venture to say that the majority of the members of the Waffen-SS were not even diehard Nazis.

Probably true of some of the divisions formed later in the war. However, when it came to the 'classic' Waffen-SS divisions (1,2,3,9,10,12) I wouldn't be so sure. I remember reading about a large batch of Luftwaffe ground personel that were rolled into the 12.SS (IIRC). At first there was a lot of bitching and moaning, but after they started to be trained as infantry and had a sense of esprit de corps instilled in them, they became quite motivated, proud, and disciplined soldiers.

__________________
There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

Unhappily for most guys ( conscript or not) it was taken care by the leadership, that there rarly could be such a thing as a way out.
Hitler himself said that there are only two ways to really bind people to its leadership: ideology or crime.

Anyway we are talking about an organisation with nearly 1 million members and so it's difficult to judge the careers of all those guys fairly.
I believe, that every single member was in danger to be assigned to one of those infamous anti partisan divisions or to the other branches of the SS like the Totenkopf- KZ guard units or to the SS/SD Einsatzgruppen.

Well I'm just happy not to have lived in those days, especially as I honestly don't know, whether ,when living back then, I had been resistable/strong enough against Nazi propaganda, a young man's lust for glory and willingness to follow tank heros like M. Wittman.
I'm sure its the way, at least some, "normal" guys ended up being assigned to commit terrible crimes.