Originally Posted by mabus

I bet the experiences with german military both of you have made come from the cold-war era.

Originally Posted by mabus

Training and discipline in the "Truppe" was far better then than it is now. During the cold war, officers and instructors were eager to keep the units in good shape, because war was possible. Now that eagerness passed away and the armed forces turned into a mess. That's why so many lazy fat-asses and useless noobs joined the Bundeswehr lately.

Originally Posted by mabus

During my "Grundausbildung" (basic training), I noticed that most of the instructors (corporals mostly) were absolutely fine soldiers. Later I figured out that most of the officers did not only deserve, but also earn people's respect. But the mass of corporals, seargents and crews, especially those of the non-fighting units, was in horrible shape. Also, the spirit in the "Truppe" felt somehow "castrated". Many soldiers were interested in the history of the older german armies, prussia's, the Reichswehr and of course the Wehrmacht, too. But though their interest was strictly focusing on military archievements and absolutely harmless, this is something which they only wanted to speak of or discuss in private. Political correctness and not beeing militaristic are the two most important maxims a soldiers has to fullfill in the Bundeswehr. Publically expressing pride to serve is like outing yourself. It's like an unwritten law. The german society is anti-militaristic. People here do not want to hear ANYTHING bad from the army. I guess the people which has the greatest fear of the german army is the german people itsself. Not because we fear beeing oppressed by it, but we fear it might damage the reputation we had to work so hard for (in best case) or it might take our sons and fathers away (in war, worst case). But there is a "friendship" between the civil society and the army developing lately. Since Somalia, people more and more learned to accept that the Bundeswehr is becoming an aspect of our foreign policy.

Originally Posted by mabus

I bet the experiences with german military both of you have made come from the cold-war era. Training and discipline in the "Truppe" was far better then than it is now. During the cold war, officers and instructors were eager to keep the units in good shape, because war was possible. Now that eagerness passed away and the armed forces turned into a mess. That's why so many lazy fat-asses and useless noobs joined the Bundeswehr lately.
During my "Grundausbildung" (basic training), I noticed that most of the instructors (corporals mostly) were absolutely fine soldiers. Later I figured out that most of the officers did not only deserve, but also earn people's respect. But the mass of corporals, seargents and crews, especially those of the non-fighting units, was in horrible shape. Also, the spirit in the "Truppe" felt somehow "castrated". Many soldiers were interested in the history of the older german armies, prussia's, the Reichswehr and of course the Wehrmacht, too. But though their interest was strictly focusing on military archievements and absolutely harmless, this is something which they only wanted to speak of or discuss in private. Political correctness and not beeing militaristic are the two most important maxims a soldiers has to fullfill in the Bundeswehr. Publically expressing pride to serve is like outing yourself. It's like an unwritten law. The german society is anti-militaristic. People here do not want to hear ANYTHING bad from the army. I guess the people which has the greatest fear of the german army is the german people itsself. Not because we fear beeing oppressed by it, but we fear it might damage the reputation we had to work so hard for (in best case) or it might take our sons and fathers away (in war, worst case). But there is a "friendship" between the civil society and the army developing lately. Since Somalia, people more and more learned to accept that the Bundeswehr is becoming an aspect of our foreign policy.

Originally Posted by mabus

The Eisernes Kreuz is a symbol for courage and self-abandonment in the very eye of certain death. It is already the official insignia of the german Bundeswehr and can be found on every german military vehicle. Now that foreigners want us to go to war again (this time with them), I think it's time to revive some of the fighting-spirit of the old days. The Bundeswehr has become a catchment basin for woozies and braindead morons. They need to play with old bones and shout "Die Nigga" while shooting to feel like real men. Every pinch of old prussia's spirit is needed, now that our army of tourists is beeing deployed into the battlefield.

Originally Posted by Imperator

ahhh frankfurt, wilhelmstrasse..and the marble palace...I know it well..

Originally Posted by Imperator

Well in any army..years of inactivity, a lack of clear spirit de corp and identity will do that to a force…..I suspect I would be amazed if I came upon the same unit I visited with for a while back Hohenfels in 85….we met an armed truppe in a town…… I hade never been close to a Leopard, and wanted to check on out…we had a few beers of course and we sauntered down the hill and they gave me a tour…the moral was excellent ..being an amateur military historian and read many account of ww2, we started talking about panzer units and battles on the eastern front….Hoth, Hausser, Balck and the 11th panzer on the Nizchne Chirskeye etc etc etc..…they knew there heritage even if they could not exactly display it as such…but, they did have a gallery they traveled with for their Company TOC….pictures of wittman, bolter, carius, sandrock…they knew the Panzer Lied too, but didn’t sing it very often due to political correctness bullshit….anyway….so it goes…

Originally Posted by Richyrich03867

I am very curious to find out if soldiers that served in the East German military were able to posses any such historic pride. My guess is that it was especially "verboten" on that side of the iron curtain.

Originally Posted by El_Zoido

I am also curious about that... I think it must have been alot like "doublethink" from George Orwells 1984...

On one side the the east German Army (NVA) took pride in keeping german military traditions (also of the Wehrmacht) much more then the Bundeswehr... on the other side, all Nazi-History was strangly connected to the West only... while the Bundeswehr was considered more like a US Puppet Militia... And Nato standartisation (US Helment, Uniform similarity,...) was considered a proof for the lack of selfdetermination in westgermany...

Even that weired NVA Helmet was a Wehrmacht-Prototype tested since 1943...

But I am really no expert on the subject...

Originally Posted by Richyrich03867

I remember getting out of the main train station in Frankfurt, which was right smack-dab in the middle of the red-light district. I walked for 6 blocks and was STILL in the red-light zone. So I gave up trying to leave and had myself a VERY good time heh heh. DO you remember a place called "Dr. Muellers"? It was 4 stories high, a department store of sex woo-hoo

Originally Posted by Richyrich03867

I am very curious to find out if soldiers that served in the East German military were able to posses any such historic pride. My guess is that it was especially "verboten" on that side of the iron curtain.

Originally Posted by Imperator

thats the marble palace I believe, faux marble in the lobby, elevators up to the rooms...or, no wait, I do remember a 4 story walk up and the name was dr. something ..man of man....good memory...anyway the bahnhoffe was smack dab at the start of wihlemstrasse which ran beside the red light district yea..I remember it alll....you ever hit the Telephone bar? they had telephones at every table and bar stool with numbers hanging over them..you could call a table and talk to the woman sitting there....it was a hot hang out....