Back when NATO was involved in the Serb/Kosovo situation, I was engaged to an Albanian national. So, naturally, we were glued to the set when any news about the situation was on.

I still remember a scene where a group of Serbs were all killed when they decided to make an attack against a German group. Not a single casulty on the Germans' side, yet all the Serbs were killed. My fiancee, who could be harsh in his views at times, commented on the utter stupidity of that group of Serbs. If they were hell-bent on attacking a group of NATO soldiers, why did they pick a German group since they were assured to be eliminated effectively - as was the case. It was humorous to me because I thought he had such an obvious point.

Many, and rightly so, view any symbol with respect to the Germans/Nazis as offensive because of personal losses. However one views the Nazis, though, it is hard to deny how effective their military was. I know I respect their military (excluding the well-known Nazi whackos, of course). That respect exists to this day for those who haven't tragic personal losses associated with that war (I have an uncle who served and was wounded in France and another who was wounded in Italy...both survived, thankfully...another who is a Marine and was on the very first wave at Iwo Jima...shot inthe shoulder and took him down - he calls it his "million dollar wound" since it probably saved his life).

I was not aware that the current military is having some issues. Although they are, for those non-emotionally tied to the Nazis and who can think without letting those emotions get in the way (hard to do, though) will respect what the German military was (and still showed, IMO, in the NATO intervention in Kosovo) an effective and efficient group of military men. That respect can be a powerful motivator for the German military to help resolve their current issues, IMO.

My wounded uncles feel the same as I do. More than likely, my respect for the German military comes from their showing respect for their enemy. (The Marine uncle, however, hasn't any respect for the Japanese military...understandable.) Only one of those uncles has since passed away.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

*chuckle*

You make Germany sound like a victim of those mean Americans. As I recall, Germany did not fight in Iraq. Correct?

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"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

The Iron Cross is associated with the Kaiserzeit and with the kingdom of Prussia, not the Nazis. I don't see a problem with bringing it back.

There is some irony in that, of course, as Germany is now a pacifist nation and would not fight under any circumstances that I know of.

The Iron Cross is certainly not in itself a negative symbol.

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"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

Germany has been involved in recent theatres such as Afghanistan and Yugoslavia. In fact, speaking on the topic, I saw the Iron Cross on German planes patrolling the US coastline following 9.11 when they immediately rendered security assistance to the US. IIRC, they were asked to do patrols of the coast following the attack and did so.

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Around 200,000 Irish immigrants served in the Union and Confederate armies in the American Civil War, often forming their own regiments and, at times, fought each other. At Fredericksburg, the Union’s Irish Brigade faced the Irish McMillan's Guards of Cobb's 24th Georgia entrenched in a sunken road behind a stone wall. Ordered to make a suicidal charge, it became one of the most famous events of the Civil War. The re-enactment portrayed in the movie Gods and Generals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag

Germany's involvement in any type of military action has been ambivalent and controversial. As for their assistance to the US, I am thankful for their involvement as I would be for any nation that came to our aid - but that is hardly an example of military action.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

Ambivalent and controversial how and as to whom? It came immediately to the US's aid following 9.11 and fully supported the Afghanistan action, including with troops. It's unquestionable that the US's activities have been controversial in themselves, including the big elephant of invading Iraq with dubious and now disproven claims, Afghanistan operations incomplete, and jumping the gun on the UN inspections that were in the midst of completion. Yet, the US government elected to abuse them before the invasion with 'you are with us or against us/axis of weasels' junk and now eats the crow. So, what exactly have they done so wrong there as opposed to what the US did?

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Around 200,000 Irish immigrants served in the Union and Confederate armies in the American Civil War, often forming their own regiments and, at times, fought each other. At Fredericksburg, the Union’s Irish Brigade faced the Irish McMillan's Guards of Cobb's 24th Georgia entrenched in a sunken road behind a stone wall. Ordered to make a suicidal charge, it became one of the most famous events of the Civil War. The re-enactment portrayed in the movie Gods and Generals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag

They looked good and active to me in Kosovo.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Surprising to me; I did not know it wasn't still in use, since I've seen it vehicle markings at various times over the years. I viewed it as just a regular traditional military award, not a 'symbol of evil', unlike the SS lightning bolt insignia and swastika and death's head jewelry, the latter all clearly political parphenalia. There was a big fad for them when I was a teenager; no WW II vets said squat about them, at least to me,

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"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon

LOL that is hilarious ...

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"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon

well according to reports from Afghanistan, they are not all that active. And they are not the only ones. And of course this comes from the reduction in forces after the wind down of the cold war, apathy regards watching us sorta dance out of Afghanistan to send the bulk of our troops to Iraq etc. so I am not ready to hold it against them, but just marking time is not in the end helping.

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Obama-e fungis nati homines....

The reason they took a demilitarised role in the Cold War was the US' and other allies' desire. The same was true of Japan. They can't be faulted for what was wanted.

Also, Germany was heavily destroyed by the war, had a massive refugee issue for decades, it was divided into several quarters and, for awhile, two nations, it lost huge territory, had to reassemble following unification at great costs, got bogged down in EU formation of which it also additionally funded (part of which was considered payback for its earlier misconduct), etc.

IMO, the US has been the poorer ally on the Afghanistan issue. Germany immediately backed the US in words and deeds, sending troops to Afghanistan. The US government had other ideas and invaded Iraq in a war of choice when they felt it was a bad idea and that the focus ought to be on Afghanistan and other tactics.

As for Iraq, it was very much opposed to the US going to war with Iraq, and long cited that it would distract and take away the focus and resources in Afghanistan.

Yet, Germany still backed the UN inspections in Iraq. Had the inspections in Iraq been allowed to finish, the dubious and now disproven WMD claims would have been shown and Saddam would have been exposed, and focus could have been placed elsewhere, including Afghanistan.

Yet, certain heads in the US government kept abusing the Germans and others, calling them 'axis of weasels', etc. and told the UN inspectors to get out whilst they were doing the inspections and started the war.

After receiving that wrongful abuse, and it turning out the WMD claims were bunk, huge amounts of US troops have been either pulled or rediverted from Afghanistan to go to Iraq. This, in the opinions of not only Germany but many other nations with troops there, has been entirely unfair.

Now, at this time, several years following their commitment, Germany and others are still there in Afghanistan. But, they are indeed growing tired of holding the bag in Afghanistan with extremely lacking US attention and support because of what the US recklessly did concerning Iraq whilst insulting them. For example:

Germany Rebuffs U.S. On Troops in Afghanistan - washingtonpost.com

Yet, in reply, the US Department of State in now in turn yelling at them for not putting in more troops themselves.

Put the shoe on the other foot.

If 9.11 happened in Berlin, Paris, Toronto, etc, and the US came to that nations' aid, and in turn cumulatively got the treatment we've dished out, I have no reservation that the people of the US wouldn't even be in Afghanistan today helping the nation that got attacked. Long ago most Americans, IMO, would have said "Ungrateful bastards. We came to their aid and in return they ignore us, insult us for not supporting a different elective war, start an elective war elsewhere for reasons we told them up front were bunk, we were right, and now they want us to do their fighting for them in Afghanistan where the attackers were and they won't even give us their own top attention because they would rather focus on the area where they insulted us and shot themselves in the foot."

The following statement is not aimed at you; it's merely an outlook I have.

Being an American--a good American in my view--means being a man and owning up to error.

It's one reason I did not and never have felt that the US should have recklessly abandoned Iraq over the years because of what I viewed was an egregious error. As Powell once said in paraphrase, the old saying of responsibility is: 'you break it, you bought it.' So long as Iraq does its part, the US owes it the chance to get on its feet. Troops should start leaving soon because Iraq must do its own part, but I was never a proponent of 'oops, no WMD--sorry about invading the place--let's bug out before we get stuck with the bill and labour.'

In the same vein, I think Americans ought to hold themselves in account for how others were mistreated and left holding the bag in Afghanistan without the proper attention. IMO, we owe the allies much better than what was and has been continuously done to them. Once we give Afghanistan its proper due, and start being a better ally than 'you're either with us or against us' crap, then we can more justifiably start focusing on what they ought to be doing there.

It's not quite fair to ask them to continuously effectively pay the financial and troop costs in Afghanistan for our self-chosen mistake with Iraq, especially given how badly we treated them in deciding to attack it against all counsel and advice not to do so. It would be nice if they do so, and would speak better of them as opposed to what we did. I really hope they do, especially given AQ is a global threat. But, I do not see them obligated to the extent to pick up slack that was created by the US' decision in Iraq. That was a US created problem for which it must correct. It's the US job to get back to level with Afghanistan and then talk about going forward.

__________________
Around 200,000 Irish immigrants served in the Union and Confederate armies in the American Civil War, often forming their own regiments and, at times, fought each other. At Fredericksburg, the Union’s Irish Brigade faced the Irish McMillan's Guards of Cobb's 24th Georgia entrenched in a sunken road behind a stone wall. Ordered to make a suicidal charge, it became one of the most famous events of the Civil War. The re-enactment portrayed in the movie Gods and Generals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag

To add to that, IIRC, before the USA went into Iraq, we gave our word to many nations of that region that we would not leave Iraq before things were settled because of concerns of those nations over instability if we did so. Similar to what Colin Powell said, but with the promise part added in.

Keeping our word to those nations, can be added to that list of what makes repectable Americans, IMO.

In general, one should be very careful of the promises they make if, that is, they wish their word to have value. On a personal level, I give a good amount of thought before I make a promise because I heard, "A man is only as good as his word" growing up quite often.

So, hopefully our leaders will remember these promises made to other nations in the region, too.

Just as we can get our hackles up when others tell us what we should do, we can turn that around to how others would feel.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

This is straying far from the thread topic, but you make it sound as though the US has been reducing troop levels on Afghanistan. This is entirely incorrect. We’ve been increasing troop levels there ever since we went in in 2001.

US, NATO Troop Levels in Afghanistan

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Election 2008 – Addicted to Placebos

True, but it is short on troops and has been, and all sides admit that. It's no secret Iraq has been the big drainer and is admitted by General Dan McNeill, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan.

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Around 200,000 Irish immigrants served in the Union and Confederate armies in the American Civil War, often forming their own regiments and, at times, fought each other. At Fredericksburg, the Union’s Irish Brigade faced the Irish McMillan's Guards of Cobb's 24th Georgia entrenched in a sunken road behind a stone wall. Ordered to make a suicidal charge, it became one of the most famous events of the Civil War. The re-enactment portrayed in the movie Gods and Generals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag

As far as I know, the only one who advocated sending in large numbers of US troops was OBL. Sending in US troops may be expedient, but I don’t believe it helps us in the long run. The question of how to deal with Afghanistan is international, and the more involvement we can get from the international community, the more likely we are to actually getting a satisfactory resolution to this problem. If the victory conditions in Iraq look dark and murky, the victory conditions in Afghanistan are pitch black.

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Election 2008 – Addicted to Placebos