Afghanistan can't be solved with troops alone for sure. It's a complicated area. But, all parties admit there aren't enough troops as it stands. That's a problem that shouldn't be there given the built-in dilemmas.

The Germans actually agree with you on your overall assessment, though, as do I. Yet, the US government might want to listen to them and you given they are criticising the German troops' current activities there. They are saying what you are and that their different approach is what is needed. It won't be just about military might--it's in all the details and how to finesse them.

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Around 200,000 Irish immigrants served in the Union and Confederate armies in the American Civil War, often forming their own regiments and, at times, fought each other. At Fredericksburg, the Union’s Irish Brigade faced the Irish McMillan's Guards of Cobb's 24th Georgia entrenched in a sunken road behind a stone wall. Ordered to make a suicidal charge, it became one of the most famous events of the Civil War. The re-enactment portrayed in the movie Gods and Generals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag

Afghanistan's people are a very great people, so proud they make you Irish look like winpering dogs with your tails between your legs. Now in comparison to any other nation that sounds absolutely impossible, the Irish are proud and very vocal about their background, herritage etc but the Aghans are in a different league. As it stands now there are probably too many troops in there for the liking of the Afghan people, keep it at this rate beyond the end of this decade or so and the people will surely turn on us and the NATO forces in general. All the bitching done on the part of the Dems about Iraq not being sorted out at the nation level by the Iraqi's is what should be said about us not doing enough to help the Afghan military take over; because the only people the Afghans will ever tolerate is their own. If the Dems do come in and throw in another 30 000 men into Kabul and Kandahar it will be absolutely disasterous, and then slowly but surely that NATO alliance will also begin to dwindle as we'll be subsidising the amount of troops they draw down before it even starts, and guess what; we'll be on our own there too. The system is definately working now as it is, we have enough in Iraq to quell the violence and the Iraqi's are happy enough; we have a ton of different nations in Afghanistan so they don't feel like we're the ones running their country and all those that pull out of Iraq then send a similar number into Afghanistan, kind of like rotating to a more friendly political football. We still have too many there though to last, and that is why privately i am happy when the likes of Rudd and co come in and pull out of Iraq and then send that many into Afghanistan, it works out becauseit more difficult for Afghans to buy into propoganda that its 50 different nations oppressing them than it would be one nation doing it. Also if it does go pear shaped i don't want it being American troops at the front end receiving the raw end from angry natives of the land who see themselves as warlords and warriors. There's more to it than that even, including Pakistan and the fat that because we wanna have that border under our guard it seems simpler to have our covert ops and intelligence in Pakistan and on the border and have mass troops on the Afghan side of the border, but if we sustain that around the whole country we will look like occupiers, because we have the borders ridden with our troops on the other side too, and have so many bases/influence and ongoing operations accross Kazakstan and Kygystan and so on not to mention our problems with Warizistan. More troops in Afghanistan is not good at all.

Wimpering dogs? Blah. They can't even brew a decent beer in their name.

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Around 200,000 Irish immigrants served in the Union and Confederate armies in the American Civil War, often forming their own regiments and, at times, fought each other. At Fredericksburg, the Union’s Irish Brigade faced the Irish McMillan's Guards of Cobb's 24th Georgia entrenched in a sunken road behind a stone wall. Ordered to make a suicidal charge, it became one of the most famous events of the Civil War. The re-enactment portrayed in the movie Gods and Generals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag

Not even close. This smells like Bush Administration (i.e. neocon) spin.

In Iraq, the USA is fighting amongst a multi-factional civil war with Iraqi citizens. That's essentially intractable to western efforts of any kind. This war is not 'winnable' by any western standards.

In Afghanistan, NATO is trying to defend a country (Afghanistan) against incursions from a foreign country (Pakistan). NATO is not at war with the Afghan people. Ergo, this war is theoretically 'winnable' by western standards.

As for Germany and the Iron Cross, I should rather see some German soldiers be allowed to do something worthy of earning an Iron Cross first, otherwise it just becomes a typical 'rank decoration' like most other such honors.

Totaly agree!!!
It's a nice medal with a long history, but at the moment it shouldn't be brought back. Not because of Nazi-bullshit, but only because it's a real wartime medal. We are, as a nation, not at war, only some of our soldiers serve, voluntary in a conflict zone. It would be wrong to waste the chance to bring back such a historic medal for such a minor conflict. Apart from that our soldiers don't have a mission, that would qualify anyone for a EK1.

Stapo, you bringing up a certain class of the EK raises a good question: If they did bring back the EK, should they bring back the two classes (EKII and EKI)? I think some German troops in Afghanistan are in positions to win the EKII, but not many.

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Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Well in my honest opinion, if the iron cross were ever to come back, then hopefully as EK I and EKII and topped by the knights cross.
But as I said, not wasted for a conflict.
With so much tradition connected with it, it's only place is in real war time, with the German nation sending its drafted sons to do the fighting.

I doubt we will see the RK make a return since it, in fact, was created by the Nazis.

The three levels of the EK are; Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse, and Großkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes. When Hitler re-instated the Eisernes Kreuz in 1939 as a German award (and not as a solely Prussian award) he inserted the Ritter Kreuz between the Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse and the Großkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes.

Perhaps a return of the Pour le Mérite may also be in order? Though, that award could only be earned by officers historically.

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Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Definitely not likely. That honor is far too closely associated with the Prussian Monarchy (and all the militarism that implies).

You’re joking, right? Most of Afghanistan (the areas outside of the cities, such as they are), isn’t so much a country as it is a collection of disparate tribes. The government controls the cities, but that really doesn’t mean much; the Soviets controlled the cities, too. Tribal loyalties are open to the highest bidder.

The Pakistani incursions are not state sponsored; they’re coming from tribal areas inside Pakistan that are not under state control. These attacks are beginning to cause as many problems to Pakistan as they are to Afghanistan. This problem is likely to get much worse before it gets any better, and it’s going to take decades. Afghanistan has almost no infrastructure or industry. The government can’t exert any real control until this situation changes.

This is all I’ll say as its off-topic. If anyone wishes to continue a discussion of Afghanistan, please resurrect an old thread on the topic, or start a new one.

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Election 2008 – Addicted to Placebos

And I am supposed to take you seriously?

Ah yes, surprise, surprise. Moderator makes a highly questionable statement, gets called out on it and all of a sudden every thing is all off-topic.

I'm only suprised you didn't delete it.

If it was off-topic you should never of raised your point. If I praised your post I'm sure it would not be off-topic.

Should I be checking my inbox for infraction points now?

....

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

You keep watching your inbox, cause everyone knows “This is all I’ll say as its off-topic” means the same thing as “you’re getting a warning”. If you can explain how the current situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan directly relates to the thread topic (which, if you’ve forgotten, is Ernst-Reinhard Beck suggestion that the Iron Cross be reintroduced), by all means please share it, otherwise I would appreciate it if you would stick to the thread topic.

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Election 2008 – Addicted to Placebos

and the Eisernes Kreuz isn't?

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Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Understandable, but the kind of 'real wars' like WW I and WW II are in all likelihood a thing of the past, like battleships. We're looking at many years of so-called 'low intensity' actions, 'police actions', etc.

Trust me, some of these small unit firefights can be every bit as intense as anything seen in 'real wars', not least because of the average firepower just small arms and hand held rockets pack these days, compared to M1 Garands or whatever was standard issue in your respective countries. It would be very unfair to deny today's troops recognition of bravery above and beyond the call of duty just because there aren't 300 divisions going at it.

If I recall correctly, Smedley Butler's two CMH's as well as his Marine Corps Brevet were won in actions not associated with a 'real war', as examples; I could be wrong and just look the latter up, but I don't think so.

Germany should move on; Hitler has been dead for over 60 years now, and Germany is no longer divided between East and West. Start making the French feel guilty, just for fun ...

And, bring back the Blue Max, and all those other Crosses; Germany had a lot of different ones, I was surprised to find out last year while looking up other stuff; at least a dozen or so from the various provinces that make up Germany.

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"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon