I really do hope the Eisernes Kreuz is brought back into use. It, like so many German military traditions, were cast aside after WW2 without any thought. Like those traditions, it has a history that started long before the Nazis existed. If it does come back, I hope it is only the first of many such traditions to make a comeback.

Heavy Medal: Germany Discusses Return of the Iron Cross - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

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Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

After the last WWII vet dies, then try to reintroduce it, but right now it is still the symbol of the evil that swept across Europe within living memory.

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“The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine.”

Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi (R)
on McCain

“I decided I didn’t want this guy anywhere near a trigger.”
Senator Pete Domenici, New Mexico (R)
on McCain

“My anger did not help my campaign ... People don’t like angry candidates very much.”

McCain on McCain

It is an issue for the German government to sort out and I think they usually have made such decisions with historical sensitivities in mind. They have been very cognizant of how their actions will be viewed by their neighbors.

Perhaps a little off-topic, I heard a radio report on the physical conditioning of German soldiers, that is to say not very good. Apparently the government has acknowledged the problem and is taking steps to improve the fitness of its troops, the German Defense official interviewed joked that 20 years ago when he was a soldier they were in much better shape.

Put down the schnitzels and do some PT, you lazy bums!

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Don't startle him, Joe - it's almost full!

The Eisernes Kreuz is a symbol for courage and self-abandonment in the very eye of certain death. It is already the official insignia of the german Bundeswehr and can be found on every german military vehicle. Now that foreigners want us to go to war again (this time with them), I think it's time to revive some of the fighting-spirit of the old days. The Bundeswehr has become a catchment basin for woozies and braindead morons. They need to play with old bones and shout "Die Nigga" while shooting to feel like real men. Every pinch of old prussia's spirit is needed, now that our army of tourists is beeing deployed into the battlefield.

Well put mabus. Though, I will say that some of the German soldaten I have meet were not brain dead. They were quite professional and competent. There were, however, still plenty of soldaten that fell into what you described.

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Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Looks as though the Defence Ministry isn't even going to consider it

BBC NEWS | Europe | New medal plan for German heroes

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Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Its too bad really but there was this little Austrian corporal with a lot of half-baked ideas that hijacked a military decoration and happily managed a war that killed millions if innocent people, tarnishing the medal in the process, I can't say I am surprised by the decision.

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Don't startle him, Joe - it's almost full!

the fucked up thing is that plenty of other things survived the war. Look at all the vets who started the Bundeswehr. They were good enough. The Große Zapfenstreich is another example.

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Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

I went to West Germany in 1981 for REFORGER with the 4th Inf. Div. and worked with the German MP's some, they were pretty good guys. Had a scare from the RAF while I was there, they put an RPG through the SHAFE commander's BMW about a mile down the road. Lucky for him the vehicle was very heavily up-armored (more than our HUMVEE's in Iraq I will bet) he and his wife came out of it with a couple of scratches that's it

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Don't startle him, Joe - it's almost full!

and hilter loved wagner...lets ban his music...no thx....reinstate it....and I wasn't even aware the dolts had outlawed it.....gee whiz....

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile....

ahhhh Reforger......man oh man the memories...

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile....

I enjoyed the time off, we did some partying on the Rhine R and ran around the Frankfurt area but I gotta tell ya that the woods in that region look just like the woods at Fort Carson CO. And that is where I spent most of my time, standing around in the woods.

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Don't startle him, Joe - it's almost full!

ahhh frankfurt, wilhelmstrasse..and the marble palace...I know it well..

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile....

I've always like the Iron Cross as a military decoration. It's a great design to my tastes. Moreover, I don't view it as a Nazi symbol at all. Yes, Nazi soldiers received them but that is only because it was customary as a medal long before that. You'll see the decoration on WWI personnel too. Even today it's seen on German military apparatus.

It's time, IMO, for Germans to move on from the Nazi baggage. In saying that I don't mean that hardcore indisputable Nazi symbols like the swastika ought to be revived, but just because something has general German military significance that the Nazis merely used pursuant to custom is a different story. Going to secondary associations beyond primary ones where Nazis only did what was traditional rather than creating Nazi tradition goes too far in my view and constitutes overkill. I mean, the Nazis spoke German too but nobody is banning that.

Germany has given and continues to give tremendous contributions to the world in science, arts, technology, education, culture, food ...heck, even good beer (nobody, not even the Nazis and commies messed with the Reinheitsgebot, the brewing laws. ). That's true in the military history too.

Even German immigrants served well. For example, more Americans are of German ethnic stock than any other. 142 Germans have received the US Medal of Honor, the nation's highest award. Heroes like General Karl Schurz and German units fought valiantly for the Union in the American Civil War. Von Steuben was an American Revolution war hero. And in peace the Amish cannot be more so. German immigrants brought all sorts of civil invention and contributions in the US. The list is extraordinary.

With history, it's critical for people to know and learn from it but it's also counterproductive to remain mired in the negatives of it whilst forgetting the positives.

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I bet the experiences with german military both of you have made come from the cold-war era. Training and discipline in the "Truppe" was far better then than it is now. During the cold war, officers and instructors were eager to keep the units in good shape, because war was possible. Now that eagerness passed away and the armed forces turned into a mess. That's why so many lazy fat-asses and useless noobs joined the Bundeswehr lately.
During my "Grundausbildung" (basic training), I noticed that most of the instructors (corporals mostly) were absolutely fine soldiers. Later I figured out that most of the officers did not only deserve, but also earn people's respect. But the mass of corporals, seargents and crews, especially those of the non-fighting units, was in horrible shape. Also, the spirit in the "Truppe" felt somehow "castrated". Many soldiers were interested in the history of the older german armies, prussia's, the Reichswehr and of course the Wehrmacht, too. But though their interest was strictly focusing on military archievements and absolutely harmless, this is something which they only wanted to speak of or discuss in private. Political correctness and not beeing militaristic are the two most important maxims a soldiers has to fullfill in the Bundeswehr. Publically expressing pride to serve is like outing yourself. It's like an unwritten law. The german society is anti-militaristic. People here do not want to hear ANYTHING bad from the army. I guess the people which has the greatest fear of the german army is the german people itsself. Not because we fear beeing oppressed by it, but we fear it might damage the reputation we had to work so hard for (in best case) or it might take our sons and fathers away (in war, worst case). But there is a "friendship" between the civil society and the army developing lately. Since Somalia, people more and more learned to accept that the Bundeswehr is becoming an aspect of our foreign policy.