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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2008
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Re: Opening Prayer during the First U. S. Congress

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Originally Posted by Kash View Post
Marriage has everything to do with religion as the act is religiously sanctioned. Civil unions, on the other hand, are more secular, and thus fall under the purview of government. With government sanctioning marriage, it is getting involved in religious activities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard J View Post
Issuing a marriage license is just one example where he is wrong.
Marriage licenses have nothing to do with religion. A marriage license is issued so that the marriage will be recognized by the state. The marriage ceremony can be performed by a religious official in a church, or it can be performed by a Justice of the Peace in someone's back yard. The state doesn't care if the ceremony was religious or secular, they just want their piece of paper.

Check out the Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act of 1923. Some Christians are actually against the whole marriage licesning thing - why should they need permission from the state to be married in the house of God?

I suppose we're going a bit off topic, though. I'll wait for Mick to come back and clarify his position.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2008
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Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: And the point is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard J View Post
Try these on for starters:
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
In establishing their authority as free men and creating a self governing civil authority independent of the King of England, the Founding Fathers most certainly were cognizant of religion. It was their religion upon which they drew the moral authority to declare independence. It is only recently that it has become chic to deny the role of religion in our system of democracy. This notion of being among the intellectual avant guard shall pass and America can (and will) return to a philosophy of humility in government.

RJ
The [U. S. House of Representatives] Committee [on the Post-offices and Post-Roads, to whom had been referred memorials from inhabitants of various parts of the United States, praying for a repeal of so much of the post-office law as authorizes the mail to be transported and opened on Sunday] might here rest the argument, upon the ground that the question [what part of time, or whether any, has been set apart by the Almighty for religious exercises] referred to them does not come within the cognizance of Congress...

Source of Information: "21st Congress, 1st Session, House Report on Sunday Mails, Communicated to the House of representatives, March 4-5, 1830," American State Papers, Class VII, pp 229. American State Papers Bearing On Sunday Legislation, Revised and Enlarged Edition, Compiled and Annotated by William Addison Blakely, Revised Edition Edited by Willard Allen Colcord, The Religious Liberty Association, Washington D.C. 1911, pp 244-268.
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2008
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Re: Opening Prayer during the First U. S. Congress

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Originally Posted by Richard J View Post
Then he says religion was totally excluded from the cognizance of civil authority.
James Madison said it as well....
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2008
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Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: Opening Prayer during the First U. S. Congress

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Originally Posted by Richard J View Post
the Constitution was amended to keep the Congress from making any laws that abridge the freedom of religion.
No amendment was needed to keep the Congress from making any laws that abridge the freedom of religion. It was well understood that the Constitution granted the government no power whatsoever over religion.
__________________
I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2008
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Mick Jagger Mick Jagger is offline
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Re: Opening Prayer during the First U. S. Congress

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Originally Posted by Richard J View Post
We certainly did not exclude religious beliefs during the debate and construction of our government's authority.
True. However, the final product, the U. S. Constitution, clearly excluded religion from the cognizance and jurisdiction of the government, that is to say, in the words of the great James Madison, "there is not a shadow of a right in the general government to intermeddle in religion."
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I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2008
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Re: Opening Prayer during the First U. S. Congress

Mick, there seems to be some confusion about the purpose of this thread. In the OP you stated "The purpose of this thread is to investigate, discuss and debate whether or not the First U. S. Congress opened its daily sessions with prayer, as is often claimed."

Were you really after such a narrowly focused discussion, or a broader discussion about religion, government and the Founding Fathers? If the former is true, I think I'll have to bow out of the discussion - I have no idea if the First U.S. Congress opened its daily sessions with prayer (although I would guess that they didn't, but that's just a guess).
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2008
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Re: Opening Prayer during the First U. S. Congress

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Originally Posted by Jefe View Post
Mick, there seems to be some confusion about the purpose of this thread. In the OP you stated "The purpose of this thread is to investigate, discuss and debate whether or not the First U. S. Congress opened its daily sessions with prayer, as is often claimed."

Were you really after such a narrowly focused discussion, or a broader discussion about religion, government and the Founding Fathers? If the former is true, I think I'll have to bow out of the discussion - I have no idea if the First U.S. Congress opened its daily sessions with prayer (although I would guess that they didn't, but that's just a guess).
I have no objection whatsoever to a broader discussion about religion, government and the Founding Fathers?
__________________
I find it appalling that Justice Antonin Scala, in his dissenting opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU, constructed his model of "the relationship between church and state" in America without even considering the actual text of the Constitution. How do incompetents like him get on the U. S. Supreme Court?
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