this may be true, but do keep in mind that it is just a few years later that the US mass produces a nuke arsenal.

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Ah, so you don’t care if the Japanese surrender, either. If that’s the case, we could have just declared ourselves victors after Midway and let the Japanese do whatever they wanted to do. I still don’t quite get your position. Could you spell it out a bit more thoroughly? We’re supposed to surround them … then do what? Ignore anything they might be doing on the island? Risk pilots on recon missions to keep tabs on them? Surround them with ships? How close should the ships sail, a couple of miles (close enough to come under fire from big guns placed on the island? Outside the range of guns, but inside the range of yacht-sized or larger kamikaze ships and subs and aircraft? Outside the range of kamikaze aircraft (a Zero had a range of about 2,000 miles and didn’t have to worry about a return flight)? How long would you keep up the blockade? A year? (I highly doubt they’d have surrendered after a year even if the blockade would have been 100% successful) Until the finally capitulated? What’s your plan?

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“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” - Lord Palmerston

And how does that get more material for more bombs in 1945?

According to this primary source document
the US had a third atom bomb ready to be
shipped as of 8/13/45, and could have produced
four more by 10/31/45:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/72.pdf

The General Hull in the link would be Lt. Gen. John E. Hull who was
then Assistant Chief of Staff of the War Department General Staff,
and Director of the War Department Operations Division. I do not know
who Col. Seaman was; it appears from the link that he was connected
with Los Alamos.

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From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord, deliver us.

Speedyer ya stole my thunder. Every couple of years this issue get debated on this board. I only see the A-bombs as significant in terms of the new technology. The bombings of Tokyo and Dresden by comparison were far deadlier. Perhaps a better debate would be the ethics of purposely bombing civilian population centers by whatever means they were carried out. I am more interested in the debating the strategy that evolved during WW2 that
made this barbaric practice acceptable.

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"I am no Martin Luther King or Ghandi motherfucker. I have no idea what those guys were talking about. You spit on my ass, I will knock you out. No motherfucking marching and singing in the street for me." - Jim Brown, NFL Hall-of-Famer and Cleveland Browns running back, 1957-1965

did you say barbaric??? watch UNIT 731

Ummm, no. After Midway, the Japanese navy was still capable of offensive warfare, and more importantly, the Japanese were in possession of the resources they were seeking throughout the Pacific Rim and had their army positioned there. In 1945, none of that is true. Their ability to control their own destiny in the Pacific had disappeared. Game over from a functional standpoint, just not game over from a technical standpoint because their elites would not accept reality.
My argument is that the war is over prior to the bomb dropping. The pre war status quo is the american navy stationed in the pacific to prevent Japan from pursuing expansion and messing up western economic and trade interests (prior to their expansion, the americans, the british, the dutch, the french all have colonial possessions in the Pacific Rim. The japanese attacked the american navy because it was their biggest obstacle in them snatching these possessions for themselves. So, in 1945 we have Japan reduced to sheer desperation. All of their possessions in the Pacific Rim, which they needed for offensive warfare, are gone. all the oil, rubber, and tin needed to build a respectable modern attack force. So here we are. In a strategic sense the war is over. Japan can no longer threaten western economic and trade interests in the Pacific. What the hell does it matter what they are doing on THEIR island??? I dont care how delusional, how stubborn, how crazy their elites are. That stuff no longer has any effect on anyone outside that ISLAND. So, vaporizing the innocents in Japan to get an official surrender, (when the war is over from a strategic standpoint, Japan cannot expand or move forward without giving in to the west) makes no sense.

The only thing that bomb was dropped for was to begin the cold war with the new perceived threat, the soviet union.

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i was demonstrating that the mass production of nuclear weapons was not very far away (chronologically) from the point in time you were declaring mass production of nukes unreliable or not feasible. It was meant to suggest that some doubt in your absolute statement may be justified until further deeper research has been pursued. IE, i am not so sure you are right about your statement asserting the bombs were not mass-producible.

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Do you know anything about WWII? As 1945 began, Japan still had one of the world’s most formidable fleets (which included the two largest battleships ever put to sea), and they were still in control of the South Pacific, South-East Asia, Korea and a large portion of China. Even when they surrendered in August, they still controlled most of those areas. It’s becoming quite apparent that, while you have an abundance of criticism for the strategy chosen to prosecute the war, you haven’t thought through any alternatives. Come back when you can lay out an actual plan, and maybe I’ll take you seriously.

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“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” - Lord Palmerston

If you knew anything about world war 2 and military history in general, you would know that this war made the battleship obsolete!! The aircraft carrier was the key naval weapon in this war, that is why pearl harbor was not as devastating as it could have been (the air craft carriers were at sea), japan simply sank a bunch of ships that were days from coming obsolete. Naval warfare throughout this war was conducted by opposing ships that could not see each other (air craft carriers).
I would love to see some evidence of this. In 1945, they still have a starving army in manchuria that the soviets are getting ready to slaughter. Their possessions in the South Pacific had been eliminated by, oh i dont know, the Americans!! Any possessions that they do have are surrounded by enemy naval forces. Once again, I would love you hear you elaborate on this point. what exactly the japanese are in control of in 1945 is going to be interesting...
I have argued over and over that no alternative is needed. (the war is over prior to the bomb being dropped or an invasion, as japan cannot function as a nation without surrendering)

(my goal here has little to do with you taking me seriously, you have obviously never thought outside the terms of the conventional debate on this issue (vaporize or invade) which is nothing but a false dilemma.

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Ummm, those two battleships (the Missouri and New Jersey) were ordered before we entered the war, and before the attack on Pearl showed the battleship to be, for all intensive purposes, obsolete.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

The ball was firmly in Japan's court though, and they made no real effort to play until after the bombs were dropped.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

they were???? then why were they assigned to carrier TF's???? why did these "obsolete's" stay in service in Korea. Vietnam. the gulf war ???? and why did they raise the the BB wrecks in pearl harbor and put them back in service ??????

BTY is was 4 not 2.

I honestly do not know why we kept them around as long as we did. There was certainly no good reason to keep them around after WW2. I suspect it was more of an image thing than any real military value.

What was 4 and not 2?

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance