Why Germans were not punished after WW2? - Page 6 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

htperr6565 · #76 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

So that somehow makes the massive amounts of rape, theft, and murder committed by the Red Army (officially condoned in many cases) as they entered German territory ok?

No, and I in no way suggested such, for the record. Mille's argument was that the German people experienced relatively less hardship than the russians, and because their nation was the principal aggressor of the global conflict (which is debatable), then they should face retribution.

If Mille argued "The Germans raped folks, therefore they should be punished" then you would have a point here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

The same sword Millie wants to use to bring 'justice' to the German people can also be used to bring 'justice' to the Russians.

As outlined above, this is not true. The premise of Mille's sword involves the German people hosting an aggressive entity that caused massive amounts of damage in eastern europe.

LeatherneckPM · #77 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Agreed. I was simply pointing out the flaw in that 'logic'.

The concept of collective guilt is a dangerous one.

Those of us who actual get this stuff will understand you. I think the problem will be that it will go over the heads of the rest, probably so far over their heads they won't even hear the whistle as it flys past.

Maat222 · #78 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by htperr6565

but the red army was hardly an aggressor....

While the Soviets were not the worst nor first aggressors, the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact actually is what started WWII, with the division of Poland between Germany and Russia.

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Russia is in no position to throw stones, as they say.

Nor would knowing about German atrocities make German civilians complicit any more than Russian civilians would be complicit for things done by Stalin.

And Germany was a much smaller country than the USSR, so proportionally it was punished far more than Russia.

And executions never make any sense.
Punishments should be reparations instead.
But even that makes no sense because the real cause of WWII was the injustice of WWI, where Russia supported the terrorist assassinations of Austrian monarchs by the Serbian Black Hand organization.

Equal guilt all around.

htperr6565 · #79 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maat222

But even that makes no sense because the real cause of WWII was the injustice of WWI, where Russia supported the terrorist assassinations of Austrian monarchs by the Serbian Black Hand organization.

you should try to make that your doctorate thesis. oh wait, it would never work, as no real professor would sign off on that.

htperr6565 · #80 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherneckPM

Those of us who actual get this stuff will understand you. I think the problem will be that it will go over the heads of the rest, probably so far over their heads they won't even hear the whistle as it flys past.

yes, it is an intellectually demanding concept. most certainly.

ThorHammer · #81 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by htperr6565

No, and I in no way suggested such, for the record. Mille's argument was that the German people experienced relatively less hardship than the russians, and because their nation was the principal aggressor of the global conflict (which is debatable), then they should face retribution.

That, in and of itself, is debateable. In so much as the direct cause of that hardship.

We could start to get really technical and factor in forces besides the Germans that caused such hardship. ie inept Russian strategy and tactics, their scorched earth policy, refusal of Stalin to sanction civilian evacuations, etc....

In the end though, Millie is simply calling for the same crimes he believes were committed against Russians to be committed against the Germans. Painly put, mass murder.

LeatherneckPM · #82 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by htperr6565

yes, it is an intellectually demanding concept. most certainly.

Not particularly, no.

Did you hear the whistle as the point flew over your head?

wiggidy · #83 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilleVanille

Why Germans were not punished after WW2? After WW2 they almost didn't have any punishment...

Germans killed 15.8 millions of civilians on the territory of USSR, 1 millions of those civilians were jews. USSR lost 26.6 millions of people totally with military deaths. In Poland they killed 5.6 millions of civilians, including 3 mlns of jews.

While Germany lost only 1.5 millions of civilians, including Jews, Gypsies, etc... murdered by Germans.

So why weren't Germans punished as they should be after the War? Why there were no any punishment to criminal German nation? Especially knowing the fact that Germans used enslaved people from Russia in their homes, fields, plants as slaves. Especially knowing the fact that Germans knew what German army does on Eastern front. Every German knew that! And there were absolutely no protests against it!* ABSOLUTELY NO! That makes every German a participator in this criminal activity! That makes every German a criminal!

So why weren't they punished?

* 20th July plot does not count since it was not civilian protest, but just a plot among military establishment for the "good" of Reich, but not against German criminal activity.

Because we're all criminals and most of us know that.

htperr6565 · #84 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

That, in and of itself, is debateable. In so much as the direct cause of that hardship.

We could start to get really technical and factor in forces besides the Germans that caused such hardship. ie inept Russian strategy and tactics, their scorched earth policy, refusal of Stalin to sanction civilian evacuations, etc....

This may be true, but i was merely commenting on your assesment of millie's argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

In the end though, Millie is simply calling for the same crimes he believes were committed against Russians to be committed against the Germans. Painly put, mass murder.

fair enough. However, revenge is a fairly intrinsic concept to western civilization.

I have been reading The Common Law by Chief Justice Holmes, and his extensive research suggests that revenge is one of the most central concepts and motivators of the western legal system.

wiggidy · #85 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by htperr6565

This may be true, but i was merely commenting on your assesment of millie's argument.

fair enough. However, revenge is a fairly intrinsic concept to western civilization.

I have been reading The Common Law by Chief Justice Holmes, and his extensive research suggests that revenge is one of the most central concepts and motivators of the western legal system.

Did you really need to hear it from Chief Justice Holmes to come to that conclusion?

Isn't this shit obvious to a 5 year old?

htperr6565 · #86 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggidy

Did you really need to hear it from Chief Justice Holmes to come to that conclusion?

Isn't this shit obvious to a 5 year old?

lol. chill man. you are right, but citing Holmes gives the suggestion a little more credibility.

wiggidy · #87 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by htperr6565

lol. chill man. you are right, but citing Holmes gives the suggestion a little more credibility.

Sorry, it's just a pet-peeve of mine because many posters on here believe if someone like Holmes didn't say it then it has no credibility at all.

I'm more for the common sense approach. It wasn't a direct attack at you, just my frustration coming through on this post because of so many that believe you cannot do/repeal anything because of precedent.

htperr6565 · #88 (**permalink**) 05-18-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggidy

Sorry, it's just a pet-peeve of mine because many posters on here believe if someone like Holmes didn't say it then it has no credibility at all.

I'm more for the common sense approach. It wasn't a direct attack at you, just my frustration coming through on this post because of so many that believe you cannot do/repeal anything because of precedent.

very well understood. Let's shatter this paradigm.

wiggidy · #89 (**permalink**) 05-19-2009

Quote:

But even that makes no sense because the real cause of WWII was the injustice of WWI, where Russia supported the terrorist assassinations of Austrian monarchs by the Serbian Black Hand organization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by htperr6565

you should try to make that your doctorate thesis. oh wait, it would never work, as no real professor would sign off on that.

A professor would definitely sign off on that if he properly organized his argument. The injustice after WWI was a big cause of WW2. I really don't see how you could deny this.

mabus · #90 (**permalink**) 05-19-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilleVanille

Why Germans were not punished after WW2? After WW2 they almost didn't have any punishment...

Germans killed 15.8 millions of civilians on the territory of USSR, 1 millions of those civilians were jews. USSR lost 26.6 millions of people totally with military deaths. In Poland they killed 5.6 millions of civilians, including 3 mlns of jews.

While Germany lost only 1.5 millions of civilians, including Jews, Gypsies, etc... murdered by Germans.

So why weren't Germans punished as they should be after the War? Why there were no any punishment to criminal German nation? Especially knowing the fact that Germans used enslaved people from Russia in their homes, fields, plants as slaves. Especially knowing the fact that Germans knew what German army does on Eastern front. Every German knew that! And there were absolutely no protests against it!* ABSOLUTELY NO! That makes every German a participator in this criminal activity! That makes every German a criminal!

So why weren't they punished?

* 20th July plot does not count since it was not civilian protest, but just a plot among military establishment for the "good" of Reich, but not against German criminal activity.

Dude, we lost millions of civilians and soldiers, vast parts of our homeland, our cities were literally obliterated, our soldiers which had become POWS were used as slaves for over a decade by the USSR, the allies literally stole all key technologies from our industries, our economy was down 95% for years, the USSR economically raped eastern Germany for decades, and we were brandished as a renegade people for half a century. We payed many billions in hard currency as reparations to both POWS and holocaust survivors which were used as slave labourers by the axis powers. We have definely payed a high price for that armed conflict.

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